Armour in the desert

[tigger_on_vrb]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.
Heres what I do, I would like to here other opinions / comments:

Any unit with armour less than 3 gets upgrades to give it a total armour of 3,
eg archers, ghazis get +2; gallowglasses get +1 etc
Any unit with armour 3 or 4 I leave alone with no upgrade, I tend to use less armour level 4 units.
All mounted missile units get no upgrades as I tend to make them do a lot of work running around in a battle and keep them away from missile duels.
I almost never use units of armour 5 or higher in the desert.

I've never really had much problems with fatigue, but I'm keen to learn from the experiences of others.

So comments generally please, also in particular
-Do you leave your guys totally unarmoured?
-Would you use armour level 4 rather than 3 as a base?
-Do you add armour to your mounted missiles (and does that change how you use them)?
-Do you use heavily armoured troops and make a quick assault?

[CBR]

Infantry with armour 1-2 has same fatigue as normal (as in not being in a desert at all) the higher the value after 1-2 the quicker the units gets fatigued.

For cavalry its armour 2-3.


CBR

[IrishMike]

Personally I never worry about the armor amount. Unless its a Multiplayer game, I just take the heavy infantry into battle and the heavy calv. Of course their is not much moving around, no fancy tactics, just a straight head on advance and attack. Most Muslim factions won't be able to stand up to this, untill the very late game, so its not really a concern.

[EatYerGreens]

Tigger,

excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?



I don't see armour for desert troops as an absolute no-no though. If you can afford the luxury, you might want to have an armoured army at the frontier province and keep back an unarmoured army for counter attacking, should you ever lose a territory.

Reason being, when defending, you want them to come to you, then be able to slug it out and surviving the slugging matches are what armour is all about. Fatigue is not a problem if the enemy are running off the field...

Meanwhile, when you're on the offensive, you need the extra endurance and speed of movement and may have to accept the likelihood of higher casualties.

[ichi]

Tigger,

excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?

Each unit starts with a base armor value, hit F1 during a battle for a screen that will show the armor (as well as att. def, and morale) stats for your guys.

Each upgrading of armor (grey silver gold) adds plus one to your unit's armor stat.

There are some Muslim units that start with armor level 5, and I've found that it is possible to use these units in the desert successfully, you just can't let them stand forever, or run them too much.

Of course, as CBR and others have stated, units with low armor (1-2) fatigue much slower in the hot sun.

ichi

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks for the insight ichi,

if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP.

[Martok]

As a general rule, the most armour I'll give to any unit is usually +2 (unless their armour rating already starts out higher, of course), maybe +3. This is especially true of light cavalry, as I like them to be able to remain mobile without tiring in the first minute of battle. (Besides, in my opinion, light cav shouldn't attack anything where it would need a higher armour bonus than that anyway. )

Of course, as 3 of my favorite factions are the Spanish, Egyptians, and Byzantines, I'm used to fighting in the desert a lot, and I tend to play to each of those factions' strengths. So since a lot of Byz of units start out with pretty high armour bonuses (katanks, VG, PA, Byz Inf. Byz Lancers, etc.), I usually don't need to go in for a lot of armour upgrades, if at all. Since most Egyptian units are built for speed and/or stamina, I'll give them just 2-3 armour upgrades.

The Spanish are a little trickier, as I have them fighting a lot of desert battles (against the Almos and later on the Egyptians). Since they're a Catholic faction, however, their units are built for strength and power--and therefore you generally want to give them more armour bonuses to augment this.

In the end, what I usually wind up doing with most factions is have half my provinces training units with a lot of armour bonuses (usually heavy infantry and spear/seargent/pike units, as they generally don't move around a whole lot), and the other half training units with just a couple armour upgrades (usually missile units, cavarly, and any fast infantry with a high attack/defense ratio, such as Ghazi's or Highland Clansmen).

[Mujalumbo]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad

That depends on who's wearing the armour, me or my enemies. ;)

I don't have a hard and fast rule when it comes to armour in the desert. I've crusaded to Palestine and saw my exausted bronze-armoured Order Footsoldiers rout unit after unit.

Playing a Catholic faction, if I have the luxury of time, I'll create a desert army specifically for the southern lands; lots of archers, spears, light cav, and some armoured up hard-hitting heavy cav for flanking. I've found that Feudal Men-at-arms without armour upgrades do eventually exhaust out and start taking casualties; still worth it though.

[Marcellus]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad

Yes, too much armour in the desert is bad, but don't forget that armour brings defense benefits!

It's a trade off between stamina and defense.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if I have to fight in the desert as a Cathy, I'd take over Ireland and pump Gallowglasses.

I mean... seriously, BEST ... DESERT UNIT .... EVER.

Those guys are like Lancers with two feet and no armour and AP!

Gallowglasses.
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 0 Cost 200 Support cost 22


Lancers
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 7 Armour 9 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 850 Support cost 85

Feudal knights.
Charge 8 Attack 4 Defence 3 Armour 4 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 425 Support cost 105

Chivalric knights.
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 5 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 675 Support cost 85

I mean... those guys out charge KNIGHTs. FREAKING FEUDAL KNIGHTS!!!

It's actually pretty easy yo get them because I think it's three to four ships to Ireland. If you're playing the Spanish, you get them to +3 attack and + 2 valour. I think Ireland gives a bonus to them but I may be wrong. You can get it from a general anyways, bribe El Cid.

That's a total of:

Charge 8 Attack 10 Defence 2 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 4 Cost 200 Support cost 22

WITH AP!

Hell, give them armour Bonuses after your romp through North Afrika and send them to take out the Byz.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I usually do North Africa last, I don't build desert armies. I just fight VERY fast. Pound the Chivalric Knights fast out to the flanks and the heavy spears up the centre, bang. Battle Over.

That said I do suffer with knights, thats why I modded the game so that Catholics produce Mounted Nobles. Those are good desert Cav.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.

Well its more the class of aermor more than anything else that counts. If it says heavy armor its no good in the desert. I dont play sp but I consider myself the expert on desert warfare as far as mp goes. Theres nothing I like better than taking my English army into the desert and kicking some Muslim butt. I never and I mean never give any units armor ups in the desert. Your better off increasing either valor or weapons as they dont slow you down. Stamina ad energy management are the secrets to winning these battle. The only unit with any armor to speak of I use would be mounted sargents. Of course if you can rush it is possible to still use armor to your advantage. But you better win damn fast.

[PittBull260]

thats why I dont attack the deserts at all :)

[antisocialmunky]

Ya know, now that I think of it, I've never really had problems with the desert.

The only units that you HAVE to worry about are insanely heavy units and cav like Gothic Seargents, Swiss Armor Pikemen, Gothic Knights, Kataphrakts, and all the other really heavy cav. And the only reason you should really pay attention to them are those insanely cheap camels.

Heavy infantry still outclass or match Muslim units even when tired, they just have so much armor and defense making them able to last even when tired. Just put a good general behind them to counteract fatigue morale penalties so they don't rout. And DO NOT let tired infantry get flanked by cav, that WILL cause an autorout.