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Thread: Thoughts on the Real Deal

  1. #1

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    Khan7,

    I tried the Real Deal in a couple of custom battles, and right away I noticed combat with YS taking longer to resolve. Of course, it's caused by the higher defense value that YS now carries. There is a gameplay issue concerning just how fast combat between units should resolve itself. The longer units fight, the more time you have to move units around that are not engaged. Some feel that the current game is too fast in that respect. In general, if you slow down foot speed and not fighting speed, you end up with gameplay where engaging and then flanking with another unit is not possible because the flanker can't get there in time.

    In the case of the Real Deal where you're at liberty to start from scratch, the choice of 0 4 for the YS att/def values is nice because, as you build up the other units around it, you have an overall slower resolution to unit combat. Balance this with how slow you want foot speeds to be, and you can get a significant expansion of distance as ShingenMitch2 points out. Or leave foot speeds where they are and have gameplay such that you have more time to utilize and maneuver free units.


    The other thing I noticed is that YS is now improved relative to other units. That will cause the online game to be dominated by cheap upgraded YS. A way around the upgrade issue is to play online with all units at the same level, such as H2 with no upgrades allowed. That maintains the intended relative unit balance, and you can get the routing characteristic you want by adjusting morale.

    MizuYuuki

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  2. #2
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Well, the point was to make spears dominant. They were dominant, after all. But notice this--

    They are now pissy and unwieldy. You can't tell them to turn hither or thither and expect them to do it without putting themselves in a bad melee position. Order, cohesion, facing, all of these have much more significant effects than they did previously. You can't just throw your yaris out there like you can with for instance NI and WM still.

    Thus by the more accurate nature of spears, other units retain their niche.

    And yes, you noticed another feature that I had forgot to mention-- I WANTED melee to slow down. It was way too fast. This was not my full and direct intention, but when it happened I was quite happy. First melee contact shouldn't be the point of no return. I love the fact that you can now manuever and utilize reserves properly.

    Only a bunch of Mizu-stlye playtesting will determine whether spears are actually too strong now in relation. I had pondered this question, and come to the tentative conclusion that their unwieldy nature would make other units desirable.

    I might also mention that one of the intended features of NI was to be a cost-efficient Spear-buster. As in for the same MP cost, they will defeat spears. So I *think* this will put a lid on spears, in addition to the fact that you can't manuever them like wildmen anymore and flanking/disorder is *very* likely to be fatal if you can exploit it.

    As I said, we can find all this out for real when some hardcore playtesting gets done.

    Matt
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  3. #3

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    In custom, it takes a YS 8 seconds to rotate 90 degrees with the Real Deal. In v1.02, it takes 7 seconds to do the same thing. That's a 14% difference. I don't think you're getting as much difference there as you seem to think.

    MizuYuuki

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Erado San's Avatar
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    Ok, gave them a go. Will take some time to get used to them, but the Yari rush is stoppable only by other yar1 it seems.

    I like the fact battle takes longer. I would like to see more potential for cavalry to (ab)use that and come around for charging in the side and the butt.

    All in all a good place to start.
    A voice from the past is heard in the lands...

  5. #5
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    Well Puzz, in your test you are totally missing all of the other things that come with the new state of Yaris. I'm not going to enumerate them, but rotating speed was not even the ruler I was using or the goal I had.

    I suppose if you wanted to fix that, too, you could mess with turning speeds. MTAWM is something different.

    Matt
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  6. #6
    Member Member Kabuki-San's Avatar
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    Khan,

    have been mucking about with RDM (thanks for emailing it to me btw). I have noticed that the HC absolutely slaughter YC now. Although it was the Dam's personal escort, they appeared to slash and burn a whole lot faster than in the past. Is this expected?

    Normally my YC would be pretty effective at nuking the Dam's escort (and just take longer in trying to knock him off)..


  7. #7
    Member Member Chaguhun Khan's Avatar
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    I personally like the mod. It goes right along when I do the Nobunaga's Dilemma campaign(which I love). Gives some history back.

    ------------------
    Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans
    Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

  8. #8
    Member Member Khan7's Avatar
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    If HC are slaughtering YC, then I unbalanced it. I'll have to find a way to fix it. Oops. If I get time I'll test it myself.

    I THOUGHT I had made YC still beat HC.. try it again plz..

    Matt
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