Death penalty

[Radier]

This has probably been discussed before, but I want to know your opinions about death panalty.

Me myself is pro death penalty. Firstly, I think immediate execution leads to fewer crimes. Secondly, the death penalty removes the murder/rapist forever. Why shall we for example let childrapists live? I think those who actually not want to see these sick people dead, indeed are sick themselves and lack alot of empathy.

Note that when I talk of immediate executions I mean that, and not just sporadic executions (see Texas).

So gentlemen... Have any opinions?

[Don Corleone]

I used to believe in the death penalty. However, I've had a change of heart and mind. I believe that as long as we allow for it, we allow for a culture of death. The only justifiable reason for killing somebody else is self-defense.

[King of Atlantis]

well the problem with killing people immediately, is that people arnt always guilty of their crimes. Some guy just got out recently after being in jail for 20 years for being falsly accused of rape. If he had just been killed 20 years ago then an inoccent man would have died.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Ok don what if some one kills your family when you are not around. If you found him after and he put down his weopons would you still kill him? (if you had the means gun knife etc)

[_Martyr_]

Here we go again...

[Radier]

I believe that as long as we do not allow for it, we allow for a culture of sickness.
Think of all the victims Don... Think of the all the children in the world who have been raped by sick men. Justice and common sentce demands execution. Do you in some way feel sorry for the rapists? I can´t understand why anyone would want these perverts to live.

[PanzerJaeger]

I too believe in your immediate execution concept.

The reason the statistics show the death penalty doesnt deter criminals is because it is used so rarely. If it is to be of any use it needs to be the punishment for all murderers.

[Don Corleone]

First, I want to state categorically, I hope I never find out.

Second, I don't know. I'm a Christian, and as my life wouldn't be in jeoprady at that point, Christ calls me to let it pass and find a way to forgive the person. Without a doubt, the hardest thing I would ever have to do in my life.

If I failed to follow Christ, and killed the guy anyway, I would most certainly be on the hook for aggrevated manslaughter, at the very least. That much I would expect. That's not even capital punishment, that's vigilantism, and if I indulged in it, I would be prepared to face the consequences (including, possibly facing the death penalty myself).

[JAG]

I am against the death penalty for so many reasons I will refrain from listing them all.

However I will point out the absurdity in your position Radier.

I think immediate execution leads to fewer crimes.

Wrong. Every single study into the death penalty has shown that it does NOT prevent anyone from murdering others and murder rates taken when the death penalty was in place and then after when it was stopped, show no difference. The death penalty is no deterrent.

Secondly, the death penalty removes the murder/rapist forever. Why shall we for example let childrapists live? I think those who actually not want to see these sick people dead, indeed are sick themselves and lack alot of empathy.

Firstly, what happens if you murder an innocent who you believed was a criminal? Well? Collateral damage? Great.

Secondly you want to live in a society which instead of facing the great problems caused with criminals of this extent, prefer to simply get rid of them? Stick all your problems in a cupboard and never open the door! That approach only causes more problems in society, whether you like it or not you have to confront the root causes of problems at some point, not simply keep bumping off the end result.

[Don Corleone]

I believe that as long as we do not allow for it, we allow for a culture of sickness.
Think of all the victims Don... Think of the all the children in the world who have been raped by sick men. Justice and common sentce demands execution. Do you in some way feel sorry for the rapists? I can´t understand why anyone would want these perverts to live.

I never said I would feel sorry for the guy, and you're making many of the same arguments I myself have made. At the very least, I would argue that life w/out possiblity of parole isn't handed out anywhere near enough. Second, if there was irrefutable evidence, such as DNA or something... I think society should lobotomize the guy.

[Radier]

I too believe in your immediate execution concept.

The reason the statistics show the death penalty doesnt deter criminals is because it is used so rarely. If it is to be of any use it needs to be the punishment for all murderers.

Not avery murderer shall be executed in my opinion. If my children had been killed or raped by someone I definatly would have killed him. I don´t think I deserve death-penalty for that.

[Radier]

JAG

You cought your girlfriend cheating on you with another guy. You take up your gun... In which situation are you most likely to kill the guy:

1. You will immediatly be executed for manslaughter?

2. You will be put ten years in prison (Swedish style; Good food, good "cell", computer, internet etc.) ?

[kiwitt]

The government-sponsored killing of individuals is wrong.

Often people who do wrongs things can be "sick", as you put it, and do truely abhorrant things. This is no reason to kill them, just because it is too hard to try cure them. Mental illness should not be ignored.

As to the Death Penalty, this is wrong. I would much rather see the person imprisoned for the rest of his natural life. While there he is provided with food, water and shelter and is made to work for 8-10 hours a day to pay back his cost to soceity. If you kill him how is he meant to pay us back.

Additionally, what if you kill someone who is later proved to be innocent, due to faulty police work or newly discovered evidence or a subsequent confession. How can you repay the families for their loss.

No Justice system is perfect, so why deliver such a final solution to the crime.

BTW: I think in the US, at least it has the concept of a "Death Row", whereby if some new evidence or confession comes to light there is the right of appeal to the Governor. This is not a bad compromise, in a country where the Death Penalty is accepted as the norm.

[Radier]

Well how many are innocent? One out of thousand? Of course there must be very good evindence before the execution is taking part...

[Sjakihata]

"What does the law say? You shall not kill! How does it say it? By killing!" - Victor Hugo

Im against it

[Quietus]

The Death penalty is an excellent deterrant. Without the death penalty, the 'rule of law' won't be taken seriously.

[Radier]

That argument does not fit with the reality. Just try once and imagine if your own near and dear got raped or murdurerd this very night. I promise, you won´t quote Victor Hugo tomorrow Sjakihata...

[JAG]

JAG

You cought your girlfriend cheating on you with another guy. You take up your gun... In which situation are you most likely to kill the guy:

1. You will immediatly be executed for manslaughter?

2. You will be put ten years in prison (Swedish style; Good food, good "cell", computer, internet etc.) ?

You see that is why you do not realise the reality. In reality sane people will NOT think - oh yes, I best kill that person now because he is cheating with my girlfriend! So thus the whole issue means diddly squat in your parameters.

But if you are talking about someone who is going to kill someone else in that situation, do you really think they are of a mind which analyses the consequences and jail term / death penalty situation before they choose to kill someone? Of course not. That is precisely why the death penalty is not a deterrent. If you want to commit a crime, you will commit a crime, regardless of the consequences, hell anyway when have you met a criminal who thought they would get caught?

You are trying to make logical inferences from terrible premises.

[Don Corleone]

Jag,
There is such a thing as cold blooded murder. Perhaps our friend Radier is using a poor example for such a thing, but what if the tables were turned, and said girlfiend and cuckolding newbie decide to off the boyfriend for his insurance money?

Claiming that anybody who murders somebody is acting under undue influence and is therefore innocent is not the way to win this argument.

But I agree with Jag, for radically different reasons.

[JAG]

Where have I stated they act 'under influence', not at all. We control our emotions, we are in total control when we make our choices, I am not stating that people who murder do not realise what they are doing. But what I am stating is that when people kill the vast majority do so not caring about / considering / or thinking they will face, the consequences. And for that reason the death penalty is not a deterrent.

[Radier]

Yes that was a bad example... Sorry.

JAG not every criminal are stupid. There are those who actually think and also consider the conseqenses.

[Lemur]

Firstly, I think immediate execution leads to fewer crimes.

If there were such a thing as immediate execution, you'd have a point. There are plenty of good arguments that can be made for the death penalty, but deterrence is not one of them.

Among prisoners on death row, the annual execution rate is 2%. (I'm pulling this from an economics book in my lap, so I can't link to my source. Beg pardon.) The annual chance of death for a street-level dealer during the height of the crack epidemic was 7%. As you can see, death row doesn't hold much threat to these guys.

What would be interesting to know is whether places linke Saudi Arabia, where the death penalty is meted out within a few days of conviction, has more success using it as a deterrence.

[JAG]

Yes that was a bad example... Sorry.

JAG not every criminal are stupid. There are those who actually think and also consider the conseqenses.

You still have not answered or responded to any of my criticisms of your position.

[Radier]

If there were such a thing as immediate execution, you'd have a point. There are plenty of good arguments that can be made for the death penalty, but deterrence is not one of them.

Among prisoners on death row, the annual execution rate is 2%. (I'm pulling this from an economics book in my lap, so I can't link to my source. Beg pardon.) The annual chance of death for a street-level dealer during the height of the crack epidemic was 7%. As you can see, death row doesn't hold much threat to these guys.

What would be interesting to know is whether places linke Saudi Arabia, where the death penalty is meted out within a few days of conviction, has more success using it as a deterrence.

Some friends of mine spent their holiday in Saudi Arabia and one day they got pushed in to a cheering crowd to stare at two executions. They were westerners so the arabs pushed them as close as 5 metres from the execution scene. I can say they were horrified and yes I think using it as a deterrence works better than many think.

[Radier]

You still have not answered or responded to any of my criticisms of your position.

Wrong. Every single study into the death penalty has shown that it does NOT prevent anyone from murdering others and murder rates taken when the death penalty was in place and then after when it was stopped, show no difference. The death penalty is no deterrent.

As Lemurmania says: The annual execution rate is 2 %. Of corse this do not prevent murders with so low numbers. I want this execution rate to be way higher.

Firstly, what happens if you murder an innocent who you believed was a criminal? Well? Collateral damage? Great.

That does not happen often. We must make sure there are strong evidence.

Secondly you want to live in a society which instead of facing the great problems caused with criminals of this extent, prefer to simply get rid of them? Stick all your problems in a cupboard and never open the door! That approach only causes more problems in society, whether you like it or not you have to confront the root causes of problems at some point, not simply keep bumping off the end result.

That is what I do! I face the problem. How many thousand murders were comitted in the US last year? I don´t know, but what I do know is that there were many. Why not start to be much more stricter to the criminals, and I mean MUCH more, and see what happens. I promise the murder rate will fall. If every man and woman knows that if I kill someone without VERY good reasons, I will get killed to... I think that drasticly will change the number of murders.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Me myself is pro death penalty.

awesome - i am going to start using that statement.

[Roark]

Like Don, I also used to be in favour of capital punishment, but not any more.

The fact that it may act as a deterrent for crime doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing for our society.

Brain chips with explosive devices , implanted in the citizenry, would also be a deterrent for crime. Doesn't mean we should adopt it.

The cost is too high, IMHO, when even one innocent person is executed for a crime they didn't commit.

It isn't reasonable to use the "if your loved ones were killed" hypothetical if you're considering the law for an entire country. I'm sure there's plenty of nasty things I'd like to do to such a perpetrator, in the heat and rage of the moment, if I was a survivor of such a horrible event in my family.

But if those emotions were to dictate legislation and punishment, we'd be living under a far worse regime than even Sharia law...

[Quietus]

Unless you are planning/premeditated on killing someone, you have nothing to worry about the death penalty. That's why it is a deterrant.

[Sjakihata]

That argument does not fit with the reality. Just try once and imagine if your own near and dear got raped or murdurerd this very night. I promise, you won´t quote Victor Hugo tomorrow Sjakihata...

That is a very easy point to make. And a point you cannot take into consideration when you are discussing something objectively.

We need to keep personal feelings aside here, or else nothing can be discussed rationally.

I am against capital punishment, because it brutalizes the society - and it is simply wrong to kill people, no matter.

[kiwitt]

Where have I stated they act 'under influence', not at all. We control our emotions, we are in total control when we make our choices, I am not stating that people who murder do not realise what they are doing. But what I am stating is that when people kill the vast majority do so not caring about / considering / or thinking they will face, the consequences. And for that reason the death penalty is not a deterrent.

I agree. Ever seen your "wife" under the influence of PMT. Acting rationally is one of their traits during that period.