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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Europe's demographic crisis

    Europe's demographic crisis
    Chuck Colson (archive)

    July 11, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Recommend to a friend

    In a well-known urban legend, college students simultaneously flush all the toilets on campus and break down the town’s sewage system. While this story about overtaxing a sanitation system may be a myth, real-world Germans have learned what happens when you don’t tax the system enough. It’s a vivid example of the damage caused by the “birth dearth.”

    The “birth dearth” is what demographers call plummeting birth rates in most of the industrialized world. Throughout Western Europe and East Asia, the birth rate is well below 2.1 births per woman—which is the minimum needed to maintain a stable population.

    Environmentalist dogma argues that plummeting birth rates are a good thing: People cause pollution, we’re told. Well, officials in countries like Japan, Korea, and Germany now know better. In these and other so-called “advanced” societies, shrinking populations threaten their way of life and their cultural identity.

    In Japan, for example, a birth rate that is barely half of “replacement level” has forced the closure of more than two thousand schools in the past ten years, with hundreds more closures to come. It’s left the government wondering who will support Japan’s aging population. These and other concerns, like the possible extinction of the Japanese people, have prompted older Japanese to call their childless children “parasite singles.”

    In Germany, the population of some villages has shrunk so much that “there are now too few people flushing for the sewage to properly flow.” As a result, the government has had to spend scarce resources on retrofitting sewage systems.

    Elsewhere in Germany and the rest of Europe, the emptying landscape provides an opening for an unlikely immigrant: the wolf. German biologists expect the growing packs to head soon toward Berlin.

    Now, wolves in Berlin sounds like the stuff of science fiction, but it’s a science fact. What’s incredible is the response of the average European or East Asian. They literally shrug their shoulders; they can’t imagine changing their lifestyle to accommodate having two or more children instead of one or none. They believe against all evidence in a technological or political solution to this problem.

    But, as columnist Mark Steyn writes, “there’s simply no precedent for managed decline in societies as advanced as Europe’s”—or Japan, for that matter. Throughout history, societies in demographic decline, usually as a result of disease, have faced two unattractive options: a decline in their standard of living or the replacement of their native population with a more fertile immigrant one.

    Europe has, essentially by default, chosen the latter. But as last week’s bombings in London illustrate, turning millions of Islamic immigrants into “Europeans,” however you define the term, is a dubious proposition. And in Japan, where racial purity is a primary cultural value, the population faces eventual extinction.

    It’s hard to imagine a better example of the importance of worldviews, and specifically in this case, the Christian one. Steyn is right when he says that Europe’s decline is directly linked to its hostility towards Christianity. Its rejection of what Christianity teaches about the family has made the continent safe for another kind of family: four-legged ones who howl at the moon.


    Ive been warning of this for sometime now but it seems I may have as well been howling at the moon.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    How is Europe hostile towards christianity?
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    How is Europe hostile towards christianity?
    Are you kidding? Ask Jag
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    But as last week’s bombings in London illustrate, turning millions of Islamic immigrants into “Europeans,” however you define the term, is a dubious proposition.
    Is this article implying that all the Muslims in Europe are terrorists?! Because that is what it sounds like!

    Steyn is right when he says that Europe’s decline is directly linked to its hostility towards Christianity. Its rejection of what Christianity teaches about the family has made the continent safe for another kind of family: four-legged ones who howl at the moon.
    The declining birth rate is due to lifestyle changes, not because of a rejection of Christianity.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Although the birth rate is declining, in much of Europe there are enough immigrants from areas of the world with high birth rates to keep the population steady.
    "Look I’ve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said we’d provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well it’s great to be able to say we’re better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what I’m remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what I’m thinking I’m remembering it’s all a bit wonky isn’t it?"

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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Of course the "Birth-rate" is going to go down overall. It can not be sustained at the rate set in the "Baby-Boom" years. It does not mean a race will become extinct, just that there will be a less people.

    When I was growing up in the 70's there were warnings of a "population" explosion. This may have helped form the opinion in some people that there is already too many people, and made the choice not to have any children. However, people didn't see this just an abberation caused by the end of WWII.

    We have built an infrastructure based on that "growth curve". Now that the growth has stopped or slowed, we need to adjust our view of what is important.
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    This article is funny, over exaggerated and false as well!

    This is no news, everyone in europe has known this for ages. And why is the alternative to accept immigrants unattractive?
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    You know there are atheists in US too? And about muslim emmigrants in Europe.Arent all Indoeuropean peoples in Europe immigrants from East?Ive also heard that Southern US is getting pretty Hispanic.Poorer people have had an long tradition to move to places where are better possibilities to get rich.Its true that birth rates in Europe ar going downhill pretty fast.But i dont think it has nothing to do with Christian values.You know in Rome in about year 0 they had pretty similar problem because women from patrician families were concentrating other things than having children.
    When a cultureS reaches certain degree of development.They have started to decline always in World history.Maybe our western civilization have reached it.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Is this article implying that all the Muslims in Europe are terrorists?! Because that is what it sounds like!
    Where does it say ALL? The fact is thought that many among them are terrorists and that you dont find european christains becoming terrorists.

    The declining birth rate is due to lifestyle changes, not because of a rejection of Christianity.
    The changing lifestyle is a result of rejection of christianity.

    Of course the "Birth-rate" is going to go down overall.
    Why? It isnt going down in the rest of the world.

    It can not be sustained at the rate set in the "Baby-Boom" years
    Thats not the roblem. Who wants that? The problem is that they cant even maitain the population they have now.

    This is no news, everyone in europe has known this for ages. And why is the alternative to accept immigrants unattractive?
    Its not if you dont mind eseeing your way of life and that of your country go down the drain. Hell why should we care how many mexicans move her. Let them take over.
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Where does it say ALL?
    well...

    But as last week’s bombings in London illustrate, turning millions of Islamic immigrants into “Europeans,” however you define the term, is a dubious proposition.
    By mentioning the terror bombings in London first, and then using the phrase 'millions of Islamic immigrants', the article is implying that these millions of Islamic immigrants are supporters of the attcks, which they plainly don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    The fact is thought that many among them are terrorists and that you dont find european christains becoming terrorists.
    The vast majority of muslims deplore terrorism. And as for Christian terrorists, how about the IRA? A lot of the IRA violence was due to protestant/catholic tensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    The changing lifestyle is a result of rejection of christianity.
    No, it's because of a reduced need of children for labour and the economic cost of children. I don't think that these people would have more children if they were more 'obedient' to Christianity (anyway, when did Christianity say that you had to have large families?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Why? It isn't going down in the rest of the world.
    That's because in the rest of the world (the 'developing' parts), large numbers of children are economically useful, since they provide extra labour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    The problem is that they cant even maitain the population they have now.
    Actually, due to immigration, most can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Its not if you dont mind eseeing your way of life and that of your country go down the drain. Hell why should we care how many mexicans move her. Let them take over.
    Immigrants hardly come in enough strength for this supposed 'takeover' you are talking about. They sustain economies. And although some don't, many immigrants do integrate into the society they move into.
    "Look I’ve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said we’d provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well it’s great to be able to say we’re better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what I’m remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what I’m thinking I’m remembering it’s all a bit wonky isn’t it?"

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Gawain how would you deal with this problem?
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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Hm what about Japan and its falling birthrate. I guess they rejected Christianity too...


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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Ive been warning of this for sometime now but it seems I may have as well been howling at the moon.
    Yes you have havn't you
    Last time you posted an article by a neo-Nazi , this time you post an article by an ex-con .
    Whats up ? Can't you find any decent sources .

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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    how would you deal with this problem?
    simple, have sex... :D
    Last edited by Sjakihata; 07-12-2005 at 00:08.
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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Gawain this article is completely false. I'll give you 3 reasons and I want you to address them:

    1. Japan is homogenous and doesn't have immigration therefore their existence as a nation is not gonna end as long as people have even one kid. The only minority in Japan is some Koreans from middle ages and some native populations in the north. None compare to the collosal 140 million japanese.
    The decline in their population is due to their shrinking of employment opportunities, therefore a good thing IMO.

    2. Germany has more people then it has eve had. How can this article claim that their sewage(sp?) is being underused when in fact more people live per city then the time the sewage was built? That's just ridiculous.

    3. Christianity is not a way of life. Going to church has nothing to do with how you treat your wife, when you get married, or even how many children you have. China is atheist, why did they have such high rise? Again it's ridiculous. IMHO the falling birth rates are caused by the fact that more people have careers and live in cities and have a high standard of living. Why would I want 5 kids when I could have 1 or 2 and still be able to work. Also the women would lose 18 months. Taht's over a year of employment.

    Please answer these, I think we all want to know why you would take this article seriously.

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Sjakihata
    simple, have sex... :D
    But those damned females outsmart us by using birth control pills!
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    By mentioning the terror bombings in London first, and then using the phrase 'millions of Islamic immigrants', the article is implying that these millions of Islamic immigrants are supporters of the attcks, which they plainly don't
    Well your entitiled to your interpretation but to me it says that among the millions of Muslims some terrorists were included. It says nothng of what your on about.

    The vast majority of muslims deplore terrorism.
    Do they or do they jusat say they do? Besides that has nothing to do with this. All the terrorists are Muslims not all Mulsims are terrorists is the point.

    And as for Christian terrorists, how about the IRA? A lot of the IRA violence was due to protestant/catholic tensions.
    Does the IRA threaten the world?

    No, it's because of a reduced need of children for labour and the economic cost of children. I don't think that these people would have more children if they were more 'obedient' to Christianity (anyway, when did Christianity say that you had to have large families?)
    You couldnt be more wrong. Its because of abortion and birth control. How can you say that their wouldnt be more children if all catholics didnt use birth control and no christains had abortions?

    That's because in the rest of the world (the 'developing' parts), large numbers of children are economically useful, since they provide extra labour.
    Well I belive that abortion is not allowed in Islam. I dont know about birth control. So its your position that only the poor can afford to have children. Whoda thunk it?

    Actually, due to immigration, most can.
    Im speaking of native population.

    Immigrants hardly come in enough strength for this supposed 'takeover' you are talking about. They sustain economies. And although some don't, many immigrants do integrate into the society they move into.
    You better start paying arttention to reality. The Mexicans here dont call it La Reconquista for nothing. Three million illegals from Mexico alone every year and that not counting the legal ones. Thats coming here in plenty of strength. In a mere 10 years that means they have accounted for 1tenth of our population.
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR
    Hm what about Japan and its falling birthrate. I guess they rejected Christianity too...


    CBR
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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    You couldnt be more wrong. Its because of abortion and birth control. How can you say that their wouldnt be more children if all catholics didnt use birth control and no christains had abortions?
    And some would say catholics are not true christians and the pope is anti-christ himself. True protestants wouldnt allow the church to have anything to say in that matter


    CBR

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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Do they or do they jusat say they do? Besides that has nothing to do with this. All the terrorists are Muslims not all Mulsims are terrorists is the point.
    No, they do. And 'all the terrorists are Muslims'! No they're not. Take the IRA (again) as an example. All the terrorism that is in the media is by 'Muslims'. I say 'Muslims' because there is a very good case for saying that although these people act in the name of Islam, they have nothing to do with true Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Does the IRA threaten the world?
    Only if we let it. And the same goes to A-Q. It does not threaten the world unless we let their actions change our way of life. If we do not let them, then all they can do is kill people, but not threaten our world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    You couldnt be more wrong. Its because of abortion and birth control. How can you say that their wouldnt be more children if all catholics didnt use birth control and no christains had abortions?
    Oh no, giving people the choice as to whether they want children or not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    Im speaking of native population.
    I don't really care about native populations. A Briton is a Briton, regardless of where they are born. I don't know what it's like in the U.S., though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkney
    You better start paying arttention to reality. The Mexicans here dont call it La Reconquista for nothing. Three million illegals from Mexico alone every year and that not counting the legal ones. Thats coming here in plenty of strength. In a mere 10 years that means they have accounted for 1tenth of our population.
    To be perfectly honest, I don't really care about Mexican immigrants. This thread is about 'Europe's demgraphic crisis', after all. In Britain, depite a lot of people moaning about immigration, immigrants from all backgrounds form something like 7% of the population, and most of them feel British. It's hardly an imminent takeover.
    "Look I’ve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said we’d provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well it’s great to be able to say we’re better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what I’m remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what I’m thinking I’m remembering it’s all a bit wonky isn’t it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    i hope that the author was using the "wolves at the gates" concept as a metaphor...

    are you kidding? europe isnt hostile towards christianity?

    it seems that european politics is operating off of the tautological falshood that:
    IF catholic THEN pro-life (one of many examples examples)

    IF catholic THEN bad

    IF pro-life THEN catholic

    pro-life = Bad


    i am using catholic for any christian denomination that is either relativly hard-line or fundamental - and it is an example of how it SEEMS, not how it is
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    First aren't Mexicans largely of Spanish Ethnic origion and Catholic in religion. So don't they count as Europeans?

    In particular But as last week’s bombings in London illustrate,
    turning millions of Islamic immigrants into “Europeans,” however you define the term, is a dubious proposition.


    According to my understanding of English Grammar the statement can be rearranged more clearly to:
    It is a dubious proposition turning millions of Islamic immigrants into "Europeans" as illustrated by last week's bombing in London

    It is saying that all (millions) of Islamic immigrants are responsible for the bombings last week. Now that is as I have already stated before a very broad brush to state an entire group of society is responsible for the ills done by a few. Now is saying that an entire religion is responsible a racist attack or not?

    Lets start saying all Catholics are terrorists because of the IRA bombings. Lets start saying all Christians are murderers for the actions of the KKK.
    Exactly how stupid and racist would that be? The authour of this article is just as patently racist and stupid, the only thing stopping people seeing that is their own prejudice.

    Falling birth rate is due to education and the knowledge gained that allows people to choose. Working longer hours, spending more time getting the education and paying for it. Also the understanding of how to get pregnant, so simple methods to avoid it until in a secure finacial position to look after the child.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 07-12-2005 at 00:38.
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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    But all this
    education and the knowledge gained that allows people to choose. Working longer hours, spending more time getting the education and paying for it. Also the understanding of how to get pregnant, so simple methods to avoid it until in a secure finacial position to look after the child.
    Is still not a great thing to have going on when your nation can become extinct without immigration.

    As a side question: does the "average" (IE NOT supportive-of-terrorist-attacks) Moslem in Europe have similar political leanings as the "average" European? I know, its hard to work with that definition. But I'll ask it a different way:

    Does the average Moslem immigrant vote the same way as the average Briton or Frenchman (or anyone else, sorry), or do they form a voting block that consistantly votes one way?

    EDIT: Fixed to be more sensitive to non-Brits and non-Frenchmen. What a limp-wristed pansy I'm turning into.
    Last edited by Alexander the Pretty Good; 07-12-2005 at 00:50.

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Whats the average amount of children on white americans?
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Does the average Moslem immigrant vote the same way as the average Briton or Frenchman, or do they form a voting block that consistantly votes one way?
    I cannot answer for either France or Britain, but I can for Denmark. In Denmark, moslems tend to vote on the center parties. Especially one called the radical left. Explanation, the part Left, historically, was the farmers party opposed to the conservatives, the noblemens party. However, today left is a liberal party (known to americans as republican), actually more conservative than the danish party The Conservative. The radical left has an ideology focusing on pascifism and modern liberal views (free market, human rights, democracy etc). This party gets a lot of the moslem votes in Denmark. Most moslems, though, doesnt vote.
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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    Whats the average amount of children on white americans?
    Prolly much lower than the 2.1 replacement rate, especially since the American average is 2.07.

  26. #26
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    I cannot answer for either France or Britain, but I can for Denmark.
    Sorry, fixed.

    In Denmark, moslems tend to vote on the center parties. Especially one called the radical left. Explanation, the part Left, historically, was the farmers party opposed to the conservatives, the noblemens party. However, today left is a liberal party (known to americans as republican), actually more conservative than the danish party The Conservative. The radical left has an ideology focusing on pascifism and modern liberal views (free market, human rights, democracy etc). This party gets a lot of the moslem votes in Denmark. Most moslems, though, doesnt vote.
    Hmmm. Thank you!

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    So you Americans are near extinction aswell?
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 07-12-2005 at 00:55.
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    First aren't Mexicans largely of Spanish Ethnic origion and Catholic in religion. So don't they count as Europeans?
    Actually mexicans have a signifigant native american population,hence their darker skin, mixed in with their spanish ancestory.

    But, anyways the defiantly wouldnt be counted as eurpeans. Do you count the average white american to be european. Sure we are of european ancestory, but we arnt european.

    The problem with the large hispanic immagrations is that many of them dont integrate into american society and even learn english.

  29. #29
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    So you Americans are near extinction aswell?
    Nope. Like the Euros, we get enough immigration to balance it out.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europe's demographic crisis

    No, they do.
    I suppose you can back that up.

    And 'all the terrorists are Muslims'! No they're not.
    Yes they are as far as the bombings in London are concerned.

    Take the IRA (again) as an example
    Again a very poor example. The IRA have no interest in spready christianity around the world. Their whole bag is about Ireland alone. No one in the US or France is worried about the IRA.

    All the terrorism that is in the media is by 'Muslims'.
    Thats because lately their the only ones doing it.

    I say 'Muslims' because there is a very good case for saying that although these people act in the name of Islam, they have nothing to do with true Islam.
    And they would say they are the only true Muslims and everyone else is an infidel and deserves to die. In fact thats exactly what they do say. Of course theres only a few hundred million of them nothing to worry about.

    Only if we let it.
    It has no wordly asperations . What have you been smoking as I want some of that.

    It does not threaten the world unless we let their actions change our way of life. If we do not let them, then all they can do is kill people, but not threaten our world.
    Thats the point the IRAs actions dont effect us here in the least. Its only between Britain and Ireland. This cannot be said of AQ and other Muslim extremist groups.

    Oh no, giving people the choice as to whether they want children or not!
    Who was it said acting like christains wouldnt increase the population? Thats what this was adressing.


    And some would say catholics are not true christians and the pope is anti-christ himself.
    Well the original church was the catholic one. All protestant churches are merely watered down versions of the same thing. Many catholics would argue the Martin Luther was the anti christ though Im far more inclined to give that honor to Mohamed.
    I don't really care about native populations. A Briton is a Briton, regardless of where they are born. I don't know what it's like in the U.S., though...
    Well their you go. I hope you dont mind your decendants speaking arabic and facing Mecca 5 times a day.

    True protestants wouldnt allow the church to have anything to say in that matter
    Thats why their protestants And your right I believe theres nothing about contrception in their churches. However I believe they do frown on abortion.

    Originally Posted by CBR
    Hm what about Japan and its falling birthrate. I guess they rejected Christianity too...


    CBR


    What do you say about this Gawain?
    Well in the year I lived there I didnt meet one Japanese Christain nor did I see any churches.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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