America and the war on terror

[Al Khalifah]

Since we have had Louis IV the Fat's thread about France and the war on terror, in light of today's news I thought it was time we had another thread on a similar vein.

This story: US troops ordered to avoid London - source BBC news.

The gist of the story is that US military personnel based in the UK (over 10,000) have been ordered not to go inside the M25 motorway following last Thursday's terror attacks. Family members are also being urged to stay away. The grounds given were that London may still be unsafe and could still be a potential target for terrorists.

Now is this really the appropriate stance for an ally? More to the point, is this not blatant hiprocrisy on the grounds of the Bush administration given their "business will carry on as usual.... the terrorists will not be able to change our ways of life." The BBC article highlights this by saying:

Details of the travel ban, enforced on Friday, emerged as US President George W Bush said the US would "not retreat in the face of terrorists" .

He said: "In this difficult hour, the people of Great Britain can know the American people stand with you."

Perhaps the Americans and their leaders are not quite so 'tough' as they would like to think. This is not a one off. US personnel were ordered to stay away from Madrid following last years bombings and were highly advised to avoid vacations to Spain entirely.

While this may seem like somewhat of a token gesture compared to France's unwillingness to comit to the War In Iraq, can this simply be seen as another sign that America is only concerned about terrorism when it presents a direct threat to the security of the United States. Bush's words of support are meaningless if the actions of his administration suggest fear and isolationism rather than bravery and solidarity.

Is it too soon to start rebranding? Would anyone like a warm slice of Freedom Pie?

[King of Atlantis]

maybe the us troops didnt want to make someplace an even bigger target.

[Fragony]

Well since London was high on the blacklist it doesn't really surprise me that they are adviced to stay away. Same with Madrid.

[Franconicus]

I heard this news as well. It is a big contrast to the behavior of the Londoners who show that the terror will not be able to change their lifes. So the US responsibles let the British down somehow. On the other hand, if I were respnsible for the soldiers and their families, probably I would do the same.

[Don Corleone]

Guys,
The State Department didn't post any travel advisories to the UK. If anything, travel to London by civilians is being encouraged. The reason our military has been ordered to stay out of London, is fears that seeing Americans in uniform will incite fear or anger in muslims living in London.

[InsaneApache]

Don't think it was because of them wearing uniforms. Typical of the American response though....as has been said....terrorism only really counts when it is directed towards America and it's interests. Yes it is hypocrisy.

"Our presence in Great Britain is our voice of saying we stand with the British people. We have a long historic relationship and we will stay here to stand by the British people."

Yeah right, just as long as you don't stand too close.

[Proletariat]

Unfriggingbelievable. And if they were allowed to run around in BDU's in Piccadilly you'd all be calling Bush a murderer who is callously allowing this tragedy to be rubbed in.

One day it's, "Look at the blood of the US soldiers who are dieing for one greedy oil tycoon's greed!"

then it's, "Look at the hypocrisy! I guess it's, 'US soldiers first, Londoners bedamned!"

[InsaneApache]

I bloody well knew it....homegrown

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm

I have this theory....the bombs went off at 11 minutes to 9...just the way the Brits do the date...(9/11/01 is 11/9/01 here)

[Proletariat]

Are you really trying to say that if a US Airmen in khaki's was targeted by someone with a bomb and eight Londoner's died along with him in the arcade they were in, you wouldn't be blaming Bush (and probably Blair) for not taking the appropriate measures?

[InsaneApache]

I don't know what you're talking about Prole....the US troops were ordered to stay outside of the M25....hardly standing 'shoulder to shoulder' ...

Blair and Bush don't really have much option than to fight these buggers...it's all this crap about we are with you, well we would be if we left our armed camps.....jeez

It's just so unseemly and disapointing after the response from Londoners.

[Al Khalifah]

America has now reversed this order. A clear admission that it was a rather idiotic order to give and sent out totally the wrong message to the people of Britain. But I'd like to thank the administration for having the bottle to admit that they were wrong and to take appropriate action rather than see such an action as a sign of weakness.

My honest opinion of the whole thing... Why are American soldiers still in this country in the first place? Thanks, but no thanks, we're perfectly capable of defending ourselves and incase you didn't notice, this is a stable democracy.

[el_slapper]

Yeah, the cancellation of the order simply proves that they've seen that the idea was bad.

In fact, it is symptomatic of the current US administration : it does want to do the best to protect America(that's their job, after all), but their blatant ignorance of how the rest of the world does work, once again, made them make a blunder. This time, it gets limited to diplomatic dark points, but other times it went worse.

It is especially rough for the Brits : when Chirac opposes to the Iraki adventure, he KNOWS that USA won't like it and might take measures. When Blair does back up any American initiative, and get thanked by being treated like BS once again, now THERE is a huge diplomatic problem for the States. I have yet to hear a positive counterpart from the current US administration towards its lawsful allies in GB.

And it is here that they really erred on the whole thing : they are unable to understand the most basic pronciple of diplomacy : "you give me, i give you". It is just "give everything to the USA & be thankful". No wonder they are not very popular. Which is sad : a real common job would be far ore efficient :(

[Fragony]

America has now reversed this order. A clear admission that it was a rather idiotic order to give and sent out totally the wrong message to the people of Britain. But I'd like to thank the administration for having the bottle to admit that they were wrong and to take appropriate action rather than see such an action as a sign of weakness.

My honest opinion of the whole thing... Why are American soldiers still in this country in the first place? Thanks, but no thanks, we're perfectly capable of defending ourselves and incase you didn't notice, this is a stable democracy.

I get the feeling that america just can't do anything right with you. They are in your country (and some in mine) because unlike a lot of europeans they aren't complete idiots and understand that a military pressence is a good thing 24/7. We are allies remember? And they are here, thank them instead.

[Al Khalifah]

So can we establish a military base in the territorial United States then?

On this base, I would like aircraft that they don't necessairly know about that should be capable of delivery a devastating first strike against Washington D.C before they can muster an effective response.

[Fragony]

So can we establish a military base in the territorial United States then?

I have little doubt that they would apreciate the gesture.

[Al Khalifah]

British troops on American soil... ok...

The phrase, not until hell freezes over comes to mind.

[Don Corleone]

British troops on American soil... ok...

The phrase, not until hell freezes over comes to mind.

They're there because it's pretty damn hard to hit Libya from Arizona.

And you do have troops here. Your nuclear trained sailors come over to our nuclear submarine bases all the time. You have whole crews stationed over here. And just like those airmen you're bitching about, you have squadrons of fighter & bomber pilots over here to train on joint tactical exercises. You have no idea how incestuous is the relationship between your military and ours. Hell, I believe you're the only other country we trust to take field command of an entire division of US infantry.

My brother in law, who actually works for a top secret defense contractor, General Dynamics, that builds the Seawolf and other nuclear subs, spent the past 3 years living and working in Ulverston (near Vickers shipyard). Guess what he was doing there for 3 years?

But if American troops are such an affront, petition your local MP. The French banned us decades ago, you're a little behind the curve in terms of kicking us out in disgrace.

[InsaneApache]

spent the past 3 years living and working in Ulverston

Ahh..the birthplace of Stan Laurel .... another fine mess

BTW DC I can say that I dont find Americans in the UK a problem, hell I love Yanks....but this was a moronic thing to do in light of the Londoners behaviour in the aftermath of the attacks. It sent this message to the UK.
We are with you....well actually we are behind you....well actaually we arn't...we're going to stay in our own version of a 'green zone' until it's all over. A faux pas on a massive scale.....and a bloody disgrace IMHO.

[Don Corleone]

I went to that museum when I was over there! Also, the pub in town is where I had my first (and certainly not the last) Spitfire.

[BDC]

Hearing on one hand "go into London, it's all ok, give the terrorists two fingers" and on the other "US servicepersonal banned from London because it's dangerous" does leave me feeling a little worried. What does the US military know that we're not being told?!

[Don Corleone]

Actually, there's an article on Drudgereport that this was a base commander acting on his own. When the story came out yesterday, the Pentagon went ballistic and into overdrive to get the policy reversed ASAP (and there's strong indications that this could be the end of the base commander's military career), but I'm sure there's plenty of you folks that won't be satisfied that Dubya didn't order this directly.

[Redleg]

Actually, there's an article on Drudgereport that this was a base commander acting on his own. When the story came out yesterday, the Pentagon went ballistic and into overdrive to get the policy reversed ASAP (and there's strong indications that this could be the end of the base commander's military career), but I'm sure there's plenty of you folks that won't be satisfied that Dubya didn't order this directly.

I was about to mention that Don because the initial report does not cite who issued the order. Base Commanders have alot of authority to restrict movements of thier assigned service members from certain areas.

[Kanamori]

Typical of the American response though....as has been said....terrorism only really counts when it is directed towards America and it's interests. Yes it is hypocrisy.

Wait, wait, this nearly takes the cake for my sig. No actually, I think my current one barely manages to be a more idiotic statement.

[InsaneApache]

well if the cap fits....wear it

Wait, wait, this nearly takes the cake for my sig. No actually, I think my current one barely manages to be a more idiotic statement.

I rest my case.

American troops cower in their bases as the impressive Londoners take the brunt.....you guys have cretins in charge....and if you think that by being blaise about this you will keep the UK on board....I'd think again before I posted such a disgraceful post. Perhaps the French were right, after all it seems that we are expendable ...children, women, civilians....the USA actions on this was dishonourable.

[Kanamori]

You're lecturing me on disgraceful posts?

[InsaneApache]

You're lecturing me on disgraceful posts?

yes

[Kanamori]

I've never had a problem with anything you've said before, but I refuse to let someone say that Americans don't give a shit about other people's problems because one stupid base commander gave an idiotic order. And, I've kept my beef with you alone, I do not juxtipose my ideas of you unto all Britains or English, quite unlike what you did here.

[InsaneApache]

well...thats a good point...I'm just disapointed in your nations response thats all...

I am angry at this....as are a lot of Brits...and if it was indeed a 'local' commander who sanctioned this...then he's a disgrace and should be shipped home..... post haste.

We have a word for commanders like that.

Good job commanders like Tim Collins didn't think like that.

We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them. There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see -- and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation. (On Saddam's chemical and biological weapons.) It is not a question of if, it's a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack. As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. Our business now is north.

[Kanamori]

I feel I ought to apologize; it was truly tasteless and downright rude to begin as I did. I could've made a point w/o being a knee-jerk arse.

[Don Corleone]

Ahh..the birthplace of Stan Laurel .... another fine mess

BTW DC I can say that I dont find Americans in the UK a problem, hell I love Yanks....but this was a moronic thing to do in light of the Londoners behaviour in the aftermath of the attacks. It sent this message to the UK.
We are with you....well actually we are behind you....well actaually we arn't...we're going to stay in our own version of a 'green zone' until it's all over. A faux pas on a massive scale.....and a bloody disgrace IMHO.

I totally agree with your outrage. It was a disgusting and cowardly order, and one the commander's men would have been right to disobey. As we speak, I bet they're processing paperwork to get the guy yanked out of command and dragged back to the Pentagon to explain himself. You can say most anything you like about Americans, we're loud, overbearing, at times selfish, isolated, a bit unaware about the way the world works, and much of beer leaves a lot to be desired... but cowardly hiding out in the hinterlands while our friends are being blown away and then hypocritically claiming 'we stand with you' is not our way.