Historical myths

[Incongruous]

Some people actually think that Lenin and his Bolsheviks were great people, jesus, that make me collapse all the time.

[Kagemusha]

Cavalry wasn't disposed of until WWII (poles, heh).

Also Soviets,Germans and Finnish had Cavalry in WWII.Soviets even had elite units of Guards Cavalry and Germans even SS Cavalry.But these guys used horses as means of transportation.They didnt fight on horseback.Specially at Steppes of central and Southern Russia at Spring and Autum horses were the best means of transportation,because everything else would stuck in the mud.

[IliaDN]

That aliens built the pyramids.

Wait...does that not count as historical?

How about Noah's surivors after the flood? The flood was probably real (too many similiar accounts of a huge flood), but we are all descended from a half dozen people? Talk about inbreeding...

Azi

About floods:
You will find info about floods in religions of people who lived in areas which were flooded often ( South Americans for example ) - so are you sure there was ONE GREAT FLOOD?

[Colovion]

About floods:
You will find info about floods in religions of people who lived in areas which were flooded often ( South Americans for example ) - so are you sure there was ONE GREAT FLOOD?

even Assyrian mythology holds true that there was a great flood. There is evidence that it was from a time when the Black Sea flooded as well as the Tigris and Euphrates flooded which obviously had a huge effect on nearly the only city-dwellers in the world at the time. Since Abraham and the first Hebrews came from Ur, it's little surprise that you find similar stories in the Bible.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

Also Soviets,Germans and Finnish had Cavalry in WWII.Soviets even had elite units of Guards Cavalry and Germans even SS Cavalry.But these guys used horses as means of transportation.They didnt fight on horseback.Specially at Steppes of central and Southern Russia at Spring and Autum horses were the best means of transportation,because everything else would stuck in the mud.

Yes, very true. I meant in the form of actual fighting from horseback as the Poles didn't possess much armour, they eventually fought from horseback during the 30-day resistance. I guess that's why it only lasted thirty days.

[Kagemusha]

Yes, very true. I meant in the form of actual fighting from horseback as the Poles didn't possess much armour, they eventually fought from horseback during the 30-day resistance. I guess that's why it only lasted thirty days.

Maybe they thought their Hussars would wipe out the pesky Germans.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

Maybe they thought their Hussars would wipe out the pesky Germans.

Maybe that picked that up from playing Age of Kings. Everyone knew how well hussars did at chasing cannons.

Okay enough poking fun at the Poles, considering I am descended from them at some point in my family tree.

[Watchman]

Actually when you think about it, if WW2 cavalry who for some strange reason carried armes blanches was given an opportunity to attack a period artillery unit up close they'd probably stand a pretty good chance of wiping it out. Around that time artillery usually didn't fire grapeshot levelly, after all.

[Kagemusha]

Actually when you think about it, if WW2 cavalry who for some strange reason carried armes blanches was given an opportunity to attack a period artillery unit up close they'd probably stand a pretty good chance of wiping it out. Around that time artillery usually didn't fire grapeshot levelly, after all.

Maybe, if that artillery would be on tracks,those gunners would have laughed their heads of at those horsemen poking them with lances.

[Watchman]

At that point the horsemen naturally enough shoulder the lances, sheathe the sabers, and unlimber the rifles. Those go through doors and wall rather better. Come on now, cavalry have been using guns and cold steel side-by-side ever since some clever fellow figure dout how to build the first pistols.

Besides, most WW2 artillery got dragged around by horse teams anyway. The ones that had decent motor transport, nevermind of the combat-survivable kind, were very well equipped indeed by the standards of the time.

[Kagemusha]

Im not arguing on that with you Watchman. I stated the same thing in this thread before.

[lars573]

even Assyrian mythology holds true that there was a great flood. There is evidence that it was from a time when the Black Sea flooded as well as the Tigris and Euphrates flooded which obviously had a huge effect on nearly the only city-dwellers in the world at the time. Since Abraham and the first Hebrews came from Ur, it's little surprise that you find similar stories in the Bible.

I have seen it asserted that the Assyrians and Babylonians (and the Israelites) got the Noah myth from Sumeria. Where Noah was king of one of the Sumerian city states (I can't for the life of me remember the name though). And that the "global flood" was a catastrophic flash flood of the Euphrates. Where Noah and his family who were on his trade barge loaded with beer grain and live stock animals was washed out into the Persian gulf, and ended up on Dilmum (Bahrain).

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

I have seen it asserted that the Assyrians and Babylonians (and the Israelites) got the Noah myth from Sumeria. Where Noah was king of one of the Sumerian city states (I can't for the life of me remember the name though). And that the "global flood" was a catastrophic flash flood of the Euphrates. Where Noah and his family who were on his trade barge loaded with beer grain and live stock animals was washed out into the Persian gulf, and ended up on Dilmum (Bahrain).

The myth of Noah probably stems from the melting of the ice age around 10,000 BC. If that is the case, then it is possible the story could stem from early humans who witnessed it and passed it along as a verbal account. If not then it was one horrid monsoon season for Sumeria.

[lars573]

It also means anyone who looks for an ark in the Caucases(SP) is never going to find one.

[Sigurd]

It also means anyone who looks for an ark in the Caucases(SP) is never going to find one.

What do you mean never finding it? It's found:

[Ianofsmeg16]

I like the Myth That King Arthur came from France, Anybody heard this one, so King Arthur valiantly fought the invading saxons from the heavy walls of Paris did he?
It comes from the fact that the middle ages author of the King Arthur novels based most of his facts on old Welsh legends and the other bits on fairytale and fantasy, the names Lancelot anmd Galahad are French.....there trying to steal the Celts' greatest hero lads. CHARGE!!!!!!
Also, why is Arthur reveired (sp??) in England when he did all that he could to rid britain of the english?

[Franconicus]

That the vikings had horns at their helmets

[IliaDN]

Masson Order - myth or reality?

[Ludens]

What do you mean never finding it? It's found:

Do you really think a wooden hull could survive four millenia? We should be looking at a few shreds of wood, not a boat-like structure.

We don't even know where Ararat is. There have been several claims that the Ark has been found (this is a reinvestigation of one of the older claims), which always created a great deal of excitement, but they were all short-lived. The website does try to put up a convincing case, but I will remain sceptical until a neutral institute confirms their claims. (If the researcher wanted other scientists to back his claims he should have arranged this already).

[Sigurd]

Do you really think a wooden hull could survive four millenia? We should be looking at a few shreds of wood, not a boat-like structure.

We don't even know where Ararat is. There have been several claims that the Ark has been found (this is a reinvestigation of one of the older claims), which always created a great deal of excitement, but they were all short-lived. The website does try to put up a convincing case, but I will remain sceptical until a neutral institute confirms their claims. (If the researcher wanted other scientists to back his claims he should have arranged this already).

I am still an agnostic...
I remembered seeing a show concerning this find on discovery channel. I posted the response primarily as a jest.
There are several sites that are quite negative to this particular supposedly archaeological find.
Whether it is remnants of a boat or just a mound can only be verified by closer scrutiny and by qualified personnel. That is: scientist with open minds.
It would have been interesting if a 2nd and thorough investigation would be allowed.

[Franconicus]

More myths:
Germany lost WW1 because of the revolution.
In WW2 Germany had excellent General's. They lost because Hitler was an idiot.

[R'as al Ghul]

The V sign and the link to the hundred years war.

Are you referring to the provocative gesture of holding up two fingers?
(quite unique and limited to the English afaik)
I read somewhere that the Longbowmen were dreaded so much that
a "bounty" was put on their heads or rather their fingers, which they need to
draw the bow with.
The Longbowmen, knowing this, raised their two fingers to indicate "Come and get them" or something similar...

Is this true?
Or were you referring to the Victory symbol?

[lars573]

What do you mean never finding it? It's found:

I got just onen thing to say to that, bull sh** (not directed at you mind but the whole idea in general). The ship in order to make any kind of impression in rock would have to have been there for millions of years when the mountain rock was still mud. And the only place where wood avoids decomoposition is antartica, and I doubt it gets that cold for long enough in the high caucases.

So the obvious answer is that it's a fake carved there by some christian trying to make sure the bible was right.

[Ludens]

I am still an agnostic...
I remembered seeing a show concerning this find on discovery channel. I posted the response primarily as a jest.
There are several sites that are quite negative to this particular supposedly archaeological find.
Whether it is remnants of a boat or just a mound can only be verified by closer scrutiny and by qualified personnel. That is: scientist with open minds.
It would have been interesting if a 2nd and thorough investigation would be allowed.

I am sorry, I thought you was serious. Actually, a team had been sent to this particular site right after it was discovered in the 1960's. They said it was a geological formation. Modern equipment can detect finer traces of material, but it is also more error prone. I am from a different branch of science, but I can attest that, under the right conditions, a bit of carelessness can dramatically improve your results. That's why I recommended waiting until the results had been confirmed by a not-religously motivated researcher.

I like to keep an open mind, but a bit of experience with Creatonists has taught me that, when claims are obviously religously motivated, a good deal of scepticism is required. It could be the Ark, but it could also very well be Christian hysteria.

The ship in order to make any kind of impression in rock would have to have been there for millions of years when the mountain rock was still mud. And the only place where wood avoids decomoposition is antartica, and I doubt it gets that cold for long enough in the high caucases.

So the obvious answer is that it's a fake carved there by some christian trying to make sure the bible was right.

That's the point I was trying to make, though I doubt even a fanatic would go this far to prove his point. It is more likely just a geological formation (think of it: there are hundreds of mountains in the Turkey: at least one of them was bound to have a boat-like structure on it.

[lars573]

And I don't trust anyone who is overly relgious, ever. I personally wouldn't put it past some group of crazy monks to have gone up there and carved a boat shape into the rock.

Now I wouldn't completely dismiss the random hand of fate creating a boat shape in a rock face. But until someone goes up there and finds out what in the hell is up there we can't know for sure.

[pezhetairoi]

I don't personally believe the Ark story was true. (The logistical difficulty of putting all animal species on one ship boggles me, knowing biodiversity for what it is :-D) Neither do I believe there ever was an Ark. Probably just a king who built an extra-large Royal Barge to weather the flood, nothing more. No Ark find has ever been confirmed, and I therefore do not believe, Roman Catholic as I am. Turkey's not helping by refusing to allow excavations :)

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

The hauls of Viking burial ships are often found mostly(not all of) intact, only after a thousand years of decay. As it has been said, after approximately four(or more) thousand of years the wood would be all but disintegrated.

We should stop debating historical record while mixing it with religious influence though. Let us debate a more important topic. Were oats, barley, etc first grown to make bread or beer?

[Meneldil]

I like the Myth That King Arthur came from France, Anybody heard this one, so King Arthur valiantly fought the invading saxons from the heavy walls of Paris did he?
It comes from the fact that the middle ages author of the King Arthur novels based most of his facts on old Welsh legends and the other bits on fairytale and fantasy, the names Lancelot anmd Galahad are French.....there trying to steal the Celts' greatest hero lads. CHARGE!!!!!!
Also, why is Arthur reveired (sp??) in England when he did all that he could to rid britain of the english?

Well, the Arthur myth is linked to France because :
- I think the first guy who ever wrote this story was french
- French nobility was found of chivalric tales and things like that
- Many people encountered in the Arthur Tales came from Britanny or Northern France.

Masson Order - myth or reality?

If you're speaking about the Free Massons, they aren't a myth. I won't really explain you everything about them, because that would be really long, but some people seem to think the Free Massons are some kind of secret sect trying to rule the world that was supposedly created 6000 years ago...
Obviously, this is one of the silliest conspiration theory I've ever heard of.

[Soulforged]

Just so everyone knows, only losers commit war crimes. Our most recent example of this double standard is rather clear, isn't it?

Just so everyone knows, there is not actual "war crime" because there are not laws in war. All that bullshit about the ONU (who mostly the US who created it doesn't respect at all, an it's an example) and it's treaties, and respect the cameraman (hey he is just filming some guy cutted in two asking for help!!!) and the honor, and the medical care... all proven bullshit, war is a crime (and if you're yankee this is actually a surprise for you ¿no?) all that happens in it is just a consequence of ignorance an respect to an idea. So please don't talk about that myth of war crimes.

[Soulforged]

Because i can't edit my post i will add this:
King Arthur- It's true that a french was who first called it Arthur, but Sir Thomas Mallori was actually the first on writting it's story, very different but also centuries before.
Atlantida (Atlantis)- Ok i think that you know much of this history for the actual myth. There are some evidence (doubtful) on South America about Atlantida, things that refer directly to the story provided by Plato. You may want to read the story that he tells, and also notice that he even says that he listened the history from an egyptian. The eqyptians are beleaved to had some connecction (commercial) with the so called Atlantis, the marihuana founded on the rests of their kings, plant that only comes from Eqypt. The thing is that all that about their amazing civilization are certainly a meet.