Interactive History III: 'Antiochus' Dilemma'

**caesar44** · 07-13-2005, 19:38

Originally Posted by Kraxis

In these matter there is hardly room for the plebeian tribunes.

I must admit that I was uncertain as to their true role (I studied the matter od Cato in Spain in late spring but quickly skimmed over his assignment in the east, so my memory failed me a bit here), but since the true battle at Thermopylae had a rather small force under Cato (and Flaccus if I'm not mistaken) become detached, I didn't think a legate would be assigned such a minor force. Though a tribune was certainly a good candidate.

Btw, Franconius it is impossible to run. The winds are low and the crews are tired, in fact the fleet was indeed running but was caught. Further, in general back then generals and other leaders would abandon an idea if it proved to be a failure.

Well , as you know , military tribunes were young aristocrats , actually , it was their first command , and Cato ? he was already a Consul in 195 , but never mind....

**Kraxis** · 07-13-2005, 19:43

Originally Posted by caesar44

Well , as you know , military tribunes were young aristocrats , actually , it was their first command , and Cato ? he was already a Consul in 195 , but never mind....

Yes, but that didn't mean they could be reappointed. Especially when a war with a strong enemy loomed. I can't look it up so it is really a moot point on my part.

**Marshal Murat** · 07-13-2005, 20:01

2)Attack Pontus, and give them the good "Alexander Reborn" speech, and get some allies among the Pontus. If the Romans attack, they can only strike across the Hellespont, and there you can be strong against their onslaught with you and your allies fighting.

**discovery1** · 07-13-2005, 20:08

Yes, attack Pontus. The Egyptians are to far from the main theater. Thrace, uh, I don't know. For some reason I think a low leve resistance will develope that will sap your strength. And maybe the Romans could seize the straits with their fleet cutting you off.

**caesar44** · 07-13-2005, 20:26

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Yes, but that didn't mean they could be reappointed. Especially when a war with a strong enemy loomed. I can't look it up so it is really a moot point on my part.

Kraxis ,
I agree , there is a moot
Just for example - http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/cato.htm in cotrass with - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder

**Kagemusha** · 07-13-2005, 20:53

I Would go with number 3.Leave your current army to secure Hellespontos that would also guarantee that Pontus will stay peacefull and your Navy to haras Romans.Rush to home and Strike Egypt.After that you can come back with lot stronger Army,because you dont have to worry about the Egyptians anymore.

**Marshal Murat** · 07-13-2005, 22:03

But in doing so, the Pontus might move into my rear, and the Romans would have already marched across the Hellespont. Egypt is a threat, but as said, you have any army in Antioch.
If you succeed in Pontus, or are attacked midway, give Hannibal command in Antioch.
I just wonder, wouldn't Hannibal be a good general in the Middle East.
He has elephant experiance, phalanx experiance, and could probably hold his own against the Ptolmeys. Although in Italy he met incompetence amongst the Romans, he did win some stunning victories. Carthage was unable to support his war effort, and thus it failed.

**Steppe Merc** · 07-13-2005, 22:09

I probably would have attacked the Ptolemies, on the condition that I'd be able to bring the Eastern cavalry with me into Macedon. That would be unlikely, and if I couldn't do that, then I'd attack Macedon and Thrace.

**Kagemusha** · 07-13-2005, 22:25

Its just my gutfeeling.But i would be scared to leave my army with Hannibal on command.Surely he is best commander available,but i think he wouldnt stay at Hellespontos.I believe he would either move against Romans or Pontus.My strategy would be gamble i admit.

**Kraxis** · 07-14-2005, 18:26

Invasion of Pontus

Having listened to lengthy debate by your three advisors you finally hush them down. "Attacking Egypt is simply not good right now. We have recently won a war with them, we need not have another strong enemy in addition to the Romans. A war on two fronts is dangerous! Not only that but the campaigning season is getting late, we are in the middle of summer, any campaign into Egypt would have to last until next year. So we can't get Pontus in line that way. Should we attack across the Hellespont we would open up to Pontus. The army in place would be certain to be out for a good while, our flank would be open to even very weak attacks. A dangerous situation... And we wouldn't even have certainty of victory in Thrace and Macedonia. No, an attack on Pontus is the best we can hope for. With the army we have now we should be able to defeat them easily and all the while we would be able to collect our troops for the showdown with Rome. These troops would also serve as a backup in case of trouble. Paphlagonia and Kappadokia are nice grounds for cavalry, even Bithynia have good tribal troops. In the event of a quick victory Pontus would be forced to supply us with troops and money."

So the matter was settled by your own arguments. You will take the current army of 30,000 troops into Pontus along with the siegetrain you have assembled in Sardis. This army consist of a good collection. All 10,000 argyraspids form the core with the 8,000 settlerphalangites, supporting them you have 1,000 Galatian infantry, fighting in the normal and fierce celtic way, 3,000 Thracian peltasts, 1,000 Cretan archers and 3,000 light hillmen armed with slings and javelins. The 5,000 cavalry consist of 1,000 Agema (formerly Companions), 1,000 eastern cataphracts, 2,000 light cavalry (javelin cavalry from the parthian tribe the Dahae), 500 Galatian cavalry (light melee cavalry) and 500 Mysian light calvary (also javelins). Together with this you have 22 elephants and 120 chariots.
An army of great quality if not of size, the only true problem you might face is a lack of light infantry compared to the Pontic forces.

You know that the Pontic army includes plenty of light cavalry and some chariots, a core of hellenized infantry drawn from the Greek coastal cities and their local neighbours, both formed up in a similar fashion as your phalangites. The actual sizes are unknown, but as with so many other eastern kingdoms tere is a tendency to pull out many thousands of low quality infantry to bolster the army, so even if you knew it would not help much in giving a proper view of it's strength.

You set out north from Sardis towards the more or less independant cities and regions. As you go you collect the troops. At Abydos you strengthen the garrison so it would be able to resist a siege and then move off again. But soon you are once again beset by your advisors.

Hannibal clearly favours a coastal advance towards Sinope to take most advantage of the Thracian tribes of Asia Minor and the Greek cities. Hopefully they will not resist you and lay open the advance on the Pontic capital. A quick decapitation should provide you with a peace before the end of campaigning season.
Lysias, supported by Kassandros, favours an advance through Galatia towards Mazaka, and from there head towards Sinope. That route would provide you with more Galatians hopefully a well as grant you better battlefields. The Greek cities would certainly look favourably at this is the hope.

What do you do? This time there are only two choices.

1) Follow Hannibal's advise and move up along the coast towards Sinope. Thracian and Greeks should support your advance. This is by far the fastest route, but as the trek of Xenophon and the Ten Thousand proved, it can be very problematic with logistics. Eventhough the Pontic navy is hardly anything to fear your own navy is occupied and so can create problems. Further the area is not good for battles, generally too narrow on the coast and in the nearby valleys.

2) Go through the central highlands towards Mazaka. This brings you into Galatia where you are already recruiting. The sight of the army should put both fear and awe into the celts, making them join the army in greater numbers. Though the route in general provides you with better battlefields it also has more dangerous passes and valleys you wouldn't need to go through along the coast.
Though Lysias and Kassandros believes the Greek cities along the coast would be greatly pleased by this you are not certain about it. Seldomly have cities surrendered without an army nearby.

**pezhetairoi** · 07-27-2005, 06:41

this thread has me hooked...

**Marshal Murat** · 07-13-2005, 22:36

If you would attack Macedon and Thrace, there may be a popular uprising. However, Kraxis pointed out that the mountains would hinder your army. If the historical battle of Thermoplaye gave any indication, your army wouldn't stand a chance. And if your defeated, then the Thracians can cut your lines, and you would soon whittle away to nothing.

The Egyptians could launch an assault. However, about ten years ago, boy-king took the throne. He could attack northward. However, the lands of the Jordan stand between him. But recent events would not be mangled. aka, he would be allied to Rome, and the armies in Selucia could help the rebels, but the king was tyranical about supressing them.

**The Wizard** · 07-14-2005, 00:24

The Thracians were divided into tribal confederations under kings. The most powerful being the Odrysians. Play them against each other, get some as allies and then invade Makedonia and you have a great campaign ahead of you...

~Wiz