Muslim Apologist Syndrome

[PanzerJaeger]

Since 9/11, ive come to the conclusion that the islamic religion as represented by many leaders in that religion is a major reason, if not the biggest reason, for the rise in terrorism against the Western World. In mosques all across the globe people are taught to be hostile toward western culture and America in particular. The verses of the koran that deal with infidels are taken literally in many cases, and religious leaders use anti-western rhetoric to hide their own failings in making a good community.

But thats not what Im writing this about. What really angers me is the predisposition of some people, usually on the left, to ignore the fact that islam has some major problems itself. For some strange reason these people go to great lengths to blame poverty, ignorance, the west itself and a myriad of other reasons - but refuse to acknowledge the very simple fact that there are elements in the islamic world that are stirring these flames.

These people not only go to great lengths to defend islam, but attack any of those who try to criticize the religion. Bigot, racist, blah, blah, blah are common buzzwords used to stifle any real conversation about the subject.

And the height of hypocrisy is that these same people who go to such great lengths to stifle any criticism of islam are the same people who will dredge up the crusades and the inquisition to try and draw some parallel to what is going on today.

My point is that its common rhetoric that "to defeat terrorism, we have to get at its root causes". Well its seems that some people, usually on the left, dont want to address a key aspect of islamic terrorism for reasons of political correctness, hurt feelings or whatever.

Ive said it once and ill say it again. Islam as represented by many leaders in that religion is a major cause of the hatred and violence that breeds terrorism, and if we're serious about defeating these guys - we should worry a little less about muslim's feelings and a little more about what some muslims are being taught at mosque.

[Papewaio]

Religious fundamentalism of all religions is a bad thing... including Kansas religious nuts stating that creationism is a science and should be taught in science class.

[InsaneApache]

Religious fundamentalism of all religions is a bad thing... including Kansas religious nuts stating that creationism is a science and should be taught in science class.

With that I shall take my leave...thank you and goodnight

[Byzantine Prince]

I'm afraid I disagree with you on this one Panzer. Islam is a very peaceful relgion, even if you take the book literally. It's when people give their own interpretations that things get messy.

I've seen lot's of programs with experts, mullas, religious writers, etc. And they all agree that extremism has little to do with mainstream Islam, and more to do with extremist sects like the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia, that send mullas all over the world to preach hate.

The fact that the left doesn't address the issue is of little importance. They are not even in power, so why mention them. If they attacked Islam have you any idea how bad America's image would become? Appaling to say the least.

[Proletariat]

Yeah, they're clearly in the same league. Let's pay homage to all those we've lost due to suicide bomb attacks from Kansas Christians.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

oh come on Proletariat, don't you know that the crusades were conducted by Kansas protestants after the "peaceful" spread of Islam in the middle east?

[Don Corleone]

I thought we've been down this road. Islam itself to blame? I don't know. Are there sects within Islam that seek to subjugate the world and establish a heirarchy with themselves at the top? Well, read the papers, you'll see it's evidence.

I'm not being an apologist, but I'm not going to go out and condemn and ideology as vast and varied as Christianity or Islam. The Japanese are for the most part, Shinto, a form of Buddhism. Does the actions of the Japanese during WWII mean that any Buddhist is an imperialist and has no respect for life?

Yes, I think there are serious issues within branches of Islam that it's other adherents could do more to disavow. But that's a far cry from saying all it's adherents are responsible.

As far as the mindset of the Western apologists goes, I don't know what to tell you. There's a certain element, surprisingly large, that seems to have a certain amount of self-hatred, and that translates into a hatred of the West and all things Western, by Westerners. There's a fine line between trying to understand what role we may have played and assuming it's all our fault. I've seen faulty logic on both sides of that equation (we're guilty or we're utterly blameless).

Edit: Ooh, good grammar there, dufus. Changed to Are there sects

[InsaneApache]

Timothy McVeigh anyone

[Proletariat]

So no 'thank you and goodnight' as promised? Alas.

Keep on naming, 'em, Insane Apache. When one group has a body count of 3,000 plus 300, plus 48, we'll talk.

[Roark]

The issues are simply extremism and politics.

There are Christians in the islands of Indonesia who go on rampages against the non-Christian community. There are also those who simply perform missionary work in the form of medicine and dentistry for the community, who bear the brunt of Islamic attacks.

I've been to a couple of Islamic prayer meetings with a friend here in Australia, and there was nothing resembling the sinister agenda that Panzer seems so focussed on. They mostly deliberated on theological points, and discussed internal issues of faith, much like the Christian meetings I've attended.

There are extreme elements in most, if not all, of the world's religions. Islam in itself is not a threat. It's how it's applied and/or twisted to suit a political agenda that does the damage (and spawns these terrorists and preachers of hate...)

[Don Corleone]

Actually, McVeigh wasn't acting as a fundamentalist Christian. He was acting in rebellion to the Clinton White House (in general) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (in the particular).

You can't call Branch Davidians Christians. Christians believe Christ was God incarnate come to die for man's sins. Branch Davidians believe whomever their current leader is (such as David Koresh) also fits that role (except for the he has to die part). Branch Davidians are heretical Christians, if they're Christian at all (and I'd say they're not, and the Nicean Creed is on my side). I can call myself an elderly lesbian waterpolo player, but that doesn't mean I am.

[Proletariat]

It's politically correct non-sense to suggest Islam is suffering from anything other than a systemic problem.

And yes, I know. There are homicidal lunatics in every religon. But let's not kid ourselves.

How's it go? 'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every Jihaddist is a Muslim.'

[Big_John]

what is islam? is it the strictest interpretation of the koran? is it also the teachings of holy men? of muslim kings? is it the set of beliefs of all muslims? the set of actions of all muslims?

what is christianity? is it the strictest interpretation of the bible (if so, which version)? is it also the teachings of saints? clergy? is christianity the contents of the book of mormon? do the beliefs and actions of all christians comprise christianity?

is saying that we worry "what some muslims are being taught at mosque" akin to blaming islam? is saying "islam is a very peaceful religion" denying a root cause of islamic terrorism?

is a post made entirely of questions annoying?

[Don Corleone]

Well, you could substitute Wahabist, which is a subset of Islam, into that equation and it holds up just as well.

The biggest problem I see in Islam, systemically speaking, is it's lack of willingness to take action to reclaim their religion. In trying to protect their dignity and pride in their religion, which I can certainly understand, they've allowed these lunatics the opportunity to claim to speak for all muslims, which I cannot. Were I a muslim, I would be begging my local Immam to issue some fatwahs of their own against not only the bombers themselves, but the imams that are spreading the message they responded to. Sadly, in an effort to distance themselves, it would seem the vast majority of muslims wish to pretend this has nothing to do with them, and how dare we insinuate that it does. I don't blame them for the actions of the bombers, but for allowing the climate that creates them to continue, I sure as shit do.

But, lest I come off as insensitve or ignorant, I'd like to point out the similarities I see between Islam at large, the jihadists in particular versus Roman Catholicism at large, and the pedophile protection brigade in particular. It's actually quite similar when you look at the actions and words of the vast majority of bishops & priests. While they themselves would never dream of engaging in these acts, the continue to allow an environment where it's all but certain it will continue to happen. The big difference here is the Catholic Church is experiencing a revolution from below, and if the leadership doesn't figure out what's going on and get on board, they're going to find themselves Princes of the Church, alright, Princes of empty buildings without a pot to piss in, because the laity with any conscience has already moved away from them on this. I'm waiting to see that sort of movement among peaceful muslims.

[Roark]

Sorry Proletariat, but if it was a systemic problem, wouldn't it have been prevalent from Day 1 of the inception of Islam, and continuing throughout the entire history of the faith?

Go ahead and call the opposing view "nonsense" if you like, but you've gotta offer up more if you want people to debate you seriously...

The muslim terrorists themselves have said that their actions are a response. To what? A climate that they perceive as being created and propagated by a decadent and evil Western world.

Now, whether or not you believe their actions are a justified "response" (and I personally don't), the issue is much deeper than a kink in their religious system.

[Don Corleone]

Sorry Proletariat, but if it was a systemic problem, wouldn't it have been prevalent from Day 1 of the inception of Islam, and continuing throughout the entire history of the faith?

Go ahead and call the opposing view "nonsense" if you like, but you've gotta offer up more if you want people to debate you seriously...

The muslim terrorists themselves have said that their actions are a response. To what? A climate that they perceive as being created and propagated by a decadent and evil Western world.

Now, whether or not you believe their actions are a justified "response" (and I personally don't), the issue is much deeper than a kink in their religious system.

Well, I guess I'm in camp #3, because I don't agree with this either. The jihadists can claim all they want is more chocolate ice cream, that don't make it so. They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?

[Tribesman]

'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every Jihaddist is a Muslim.'
Not quite Prole , ever heard of August Kries ?
But of course he isn't from Kansas , and though he calls himself a Christian and has a group that call themselves Christian they are just about as crazy as Al-Qaida .
Whoda thunk it , the Christian Jesus Christ Aryan race calling for Jihad
Then of course on a different continent you have the Lords Army , they take their version of Christian crusading so seriously they crucify non-believers .

[Don Corleone]

Come on Tribesman. There's a world of difference between what's going on inside (and coming out of) Saudi Arabia these days on a systematic basis and some kooks holed up in (where is it, Rwanda?) an African country that's essentially had violent upheaval ever since it's liberation. You're comparing a street mugger (granted, a violent thief) to the entire US mafia (quite a bit larger in scale).

[Roark]

Well, I guess I'm in camp #3, because I don't agree with this either. The jihadists can claim all they want is more chocolate ice cream, that don't make it so. They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?

I do, mate.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

The West are "unworthy" as inheritors of the world, according to them. We are decadent, evil, and represent everything that Allah hates, and we should therefore be deposed.

[PanzerJaeger]

Man, even in this thread there seem to be some who have a knee-jerk reaction to hearing anything negative about any muslims.

Its like a mental trigger. People cant do anything but say Islam is mostly peaceful and Christians are just as bad.. well we all know most muslims are peaceful and theres no need to try and draw relativity to Christianity.

Please realize that it is possible to talk about the Wahabists and other sects that preach hate without broadening the discussion to all muslims.

Those terrorists in New York, Madrid, London and countless other places didnt just wake up one day and decide that the western world was against Islam. There was and is a whole network of religious leaders and believers who support such an ideology. Simply because there arent a vast number of muslims who embrace terrorism doesnt mean there arent a whole lot of them that passively support it.

That is a problem worth addressing, not closing our eyes in fears of hurting muslim's feelings. If a muslim doesnt embrace this ideology, there is no reason for him to get offended anyway.

[Roark]

Panzer, I most certainly agree with you that the teachings of the hateful extremist schools of Islam need to be looked at closely. I find it repellent that they are apparently able to operate in my own country, and to find new blood within our youth for their membership.

[Byzantine Prince]

They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?

May we, the people, have some proof as well, because I've never heard about this.

Yeah, they're clearly in the same league. Let's pay homage to all those we've lost due to suicide bomb attacks from Kansas Christians.

There's plenty of Christian terrorists. I'm sure you know this. The fact that they don't come from Kansas is unfortunate because then you'd really be wrong.
Does this make me want to go out and start mouthing off about how Christianity kills people? No. Is it right for me to do so? No.
I have other reasons for bashing Christianity, I don't need to complain about let's say the IRA, the ETA, etc. And believe you me there's dozens of these organizations all over Europe, and the rest of the world. I could easily blame Christianity for their actions, but is that what Jesus was all about? I don't think so, unles Orthodox Christianity(the one I grew up with) is completely different from yours.

'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every Jihaddist is a Muslim.'

Well every arab is a muslim, and so only they can use the word Jihad to say what they are doing.

[Don Corleone]

I do, mate.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

The West are "unworthy" as inheritors of the world, according to them. We are decadent, evil, and represent everything that Allah hates, and we should therefore be deposed.

All because you're not a Wahabist muslim. This is what I call the Navaros argument (well, we are a bunch of sick fiends, we kinda deserve what we're getting) You could ban pornography, alcohol, put every woman into a burkha, go back to being kosher, basically adopt every last practice of their faith, but continue to call yourself a Christian and you'd change their views not one iota.

[Don Corleone]

May we, the people, have some proof as well, because I've never heard about this.

Last I checked, I wasn't in a courtroom, and you weren't a DA. But YOU certainly may have some evidence of it. Go read any of the letters from Osama bin Laden or al Zarqawi. Every single time, they say they won't stop until we all adopt Islam, and their particular brand of Islam. You show your ignorance when you make silly charges like that.

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer, I most certainly agree with you that the teachings of the hateful extremist schools of Islam need to be looked at closely. I find it repellent that they are apparently able to operate in my own country, and to find new blood within our youth for their membership.

Thats all im asking for.

We need to differentiate between the majority of normal mosques and religious branches of Islam and the radical ones.

Many politicians and press people dont want to even go there, it seems to be off limits as it might offend some people.

[Big_John]

Well every arab is a muslim, and so only they can use the word Jihad to say what they are doing.

say what? not sure what you're trying to argue with that sentence anyway, but just fyi, not all arabs are muslim.

[Don Corleone]

Well, dont' worry too much about Saudi Arabia, they're already here, pouring in from Mexico.... I'm starting a new topic on that...

[Roark]

All because you're not a Wahabist muslim. This is what I call the Navaros argument (well, we are a bunch of sick fiends, we kinda deserve what we're getting) You could ban pornography, alcohol, put every woman into a burkha, go back to being kosher, basically adopt every last practice of their faith, but continue to call yourself a Christian and you'd change their views not one iota.

Bingo. One of the reasons why I am forced to agree with the US-developed policy of non-negotiation with terrorists. These people are cultists and fanatics, in the most extreme sense of these words.

[Byzantine Prince]

Last I checked, I wasn't in a courtroom, and you weren't a DA. But YOU certainly may have some evidence of it. Go read any of the letters from Osama bin Laden or al Zarqawi. Every single time, they say they won't stop until we all adopt Islam, and their particular brand of Islam. You show your ignorance when you make silly charges like that.

You're joking right? Since when is Osama binLaden(LOL!!!) the poster boy for maistream Islam. That is false to the point of being offensive.

[Tribesman]

Don ,the first kook I mentioned is holed up in Pennsylvania I think after leaving Idaho , his call for Jihad was in a recent TV interview with CNN .
The other kooks are in Sudan , Uganda , Zaire (or whatever they are calling it this month), Ethiopia and Kenya .
You're comparing a street mugger (granted, a violent thief) to the entire US mafia (quite a bit larger in scale).
Yes the church of Jesus Christ Christian and the Aryan Nations are small groups an hav't killed many people , the Lords Army is a larger group that has killed many many thousands . But they constitute a very small proportion of persons who descibe themselves as christian , in the same way that Al-Qaida constitute a very small proportion of those persons who describe themselves as Muslim .
I am just being picky , but having a right wing nut calling for Jihad was just too good an opertunity to pass up as a response to Proles statement and Panzers those of the "left" post .