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  1. #1
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Sorry Proletariat, but if it was a systemic problem, wouldn't it have been prevalent from Day 1 of the inception of Islam, and continuing throughout the entire history of the faith?

    Go ahead and call the opposing view "nonsense" if you like, but you've gotta offer up more if you want people to debate you seriously...

    The muslim terrorists themselves have said that their actions are a response. To what? A climate that they perceive as being created and propagated by a decadent and evil Western world.

    Now, whether or not you believe their actions are a justified "response" (and I personally don't), the issue is much deeper than a kink in their religious system.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    Sorry Proletariat, but if it was a systemic problem, wouldn't it have been prevalent from Day 1 of the inception of Islam, and continuing throughout the entire history of the faith?

    Go ahead and call the opposing view "nonsense" if you like, but you've gotta offer up more if you want people to debate you seriously...

    The muslim terrorists themselves have said that their actions are a response. To what? A climate that they perceive as being created and propagated by a decadent and evil Western world.

    Now, whether or not you believe their actions are a justified "response" (and I personally don't), the issue is much deeper than a kink in their religious system.
    Well, I guess I'm in camp #3, because I don't agree with this either. The jihadists can claim all they want is more chocolate ice cream, that don't make it so. They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Well, I guess I'm in camp #3, because I don't agree with this either. The jihadists can claim all they want is more chocolate ice cream, that don't make it so. They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?
    I do, mate.

    That's exactly what I'm saying.

    The West are "unworthy" as inheritors of the world, according to them. We are decadent, evil, and represent everything that Allah hates, and we should therefore be deposed.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    I do, mate.

    That's exactly what I'm saying.

    The West are "unworthy" as inheritors of the world, according to them. We are decadent, evil, and represent everything that Allah hates, and we should therefore be deposed.
    All because you're not a Wahabist muslim. This is what I call the Navaros argument (well, we are a bunch of sick fiends, we kinda deserve what we're getting) You could ban pornography, alcohol, put every woman into a burkha, go back to being kosher, basically adopt every last practice of their faith, but continue to call yourself a Christian and you'd change their views not one iota.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  5. #5
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    All because you're not a Wahabist muslim. This is what I call the Navaros argument (well, we are a bunch of sick fiends, we kinda deserve what we're getting) You could ban pornography, alcohol, put every woman into a burkha, go back to being kosher, basically adopt every last practice of their faith, but continue to call yourself a Christian and you'd change their views not one iota.
    Bingo. One of the reasons why I am forced to agree with the US-developed policy of non-negotiation with terrorists. These people are cultists and fanatics, in the most extreme sense of these words.

  6. #6
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    From this article below. I wouldn't call the CFR a "leftist" organisation.

    Do all Muslims see things al-Qaeda’s way?
    No. Most Islamic scholars interpret jihad as a nonviolent quest for justice—a holy struggle rather than a holy war. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Council on Foreign Relations
    Causes of 9/11:
    A Clash of Civilizations?

    Were the September 11 attacks part of a clash between Islam and Western civilization?
    Osama bin Laden and his terror network see it that way, but most Western foreign policy experts disagree. Al-Qaeda considers its terrorist campaign against the United States to be part of a war between the ummah—Arabic for the “Muslim community”—and the Christian and Jewish West. But al-Qaeda’s extremist, politicized form of Islam represents only one strain within a diverse religion—and a radical one that many Muslims reject as a grotesque distortion of their faith. Many Muslim-majority countries are members of the U.S.-led coalition fighting al-Qaeda. Moreover, al-Qaeda also targets Muslim governments, such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia, that it sees as godless. Many experts therefore say the September 11 attacks cannot be reduced to a “clash of civilizations.”

    What is a “clash of civilizations”?

    In an influential 1993 Foreign Affairs article titled “The Clash of Civilizations?” the Harvard political scientist Samuel P. Huntington argued that in the wake of the Cold War, the main pattern of global conflict would probably be cultural, not economic or ideological. Civilizations, in Huntington’s thinking, are broad groupings organized around language, history, religion, and self-identification. “In the coming years, the local conflicts most likely to escalate into major wars will be those...along the fault lines between civilizations,” wrote Huntington, who listed eight “major civilizations”—Western, Confucian, Japanese, Islamic, Hindu, Slavic-Orthodox, Latin American, and African—that might clash with one another.

    Does al-Qaeda think it’s engaged in a clash of civilizations?

    Yes. Bin Laden openly seeks a clash between Islam and the West. “This battle is not between al-Qaeda and the U.S.,” the al-Qaeda leader said in October 2001. “This is a battle of Muslims against the global crusaders.” From bin Laden’s perspective, it is a clash that has been under way for centuries, with the Americans as the latest incarnation of the Christian Crusaders—arrogant Western interlopers out to oppress Muslims. In an October 2001 interview on al-Jazeera, the Arabic satellite news channel, bin Laden talked about the “clash of civilizations” thesis.

    Muslims, bin Laden argues, must reverse a series of humiliations that they’ve endured since the Ottoman Empire, the last Muslim great power, was dismantled after World War I. Al-Qaeda’s 1998 declaration of a jihad, or holy war, against “Jews and Crusaders” urges Muslims to attack “the Americans and their allies, civilian and military,” supposedly as a response to U.S. policies that al-Qaeda feels oppress Muslims: the stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia; the backing of U.N. sanctions against Iraq; support for repressive Arab regimes; support for Israel; alleged complicity in Russian attacks on Muslims in Chechnya; and interventions in Bosnia, Somalia, and other Muslim regions that bin Laden sees as attempts to spread America’s empire. These Western policies, according to al-Qaeda, add up to a “clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.”

    Do all Muslims see things al-Qaeda’s way?
    No. Most Islamic scholars interpret jihad as a nonviolent quest for justice—a holy struggle rather than a holy war. (Bin Laden is not a credentialed Muslim scholar, and most Muslims do not recognize him as a religious authority.) Moreover, mainstream Islamic teachings prohibit the killing of civilians. Islam has a tradition of religious tolerance and moderate leadership, exemplified by the Muslim caliphate’s ninth- and tenth-century rule of Spain and by the pluralism and diversity of the Ottoman Empire. Still, many scholars today worry about the growth of fundamentalism and anti-Americanism in Muslim countries.

    Why is anti-Americanism prevalent in many Muslim countries?
    For a complicated series of reasons. One key factor, experts say, is that many Muslims live under authoritarian governments lacking democratic institutions that would let citizens openly express grievances and solve problems themselves. Moreover, American support for such repressive regimes as Egypt and Saudi Arabia has sowed widespread bitterness. Many Islamic movements “are anti-Western because the governments they oppose are pro-Western,” writes Shibley Telhami, a University of Maryland specialist in Muslim public opinion. Within the Arab world, U.S. support for Israel is also frequently cited as a source of anti-Americanism. On a deeper level, some experts argue, resentment of the United States is a reaction to America’s overwhelming wealth and power, particularly when compared to the economic stagnation and political insignificance of many Muslim states. This disparity leads Islamist movements, which are usually antimodern as well as anti-Western, to blame America for the loss of Islam’s past glory.

    Is the West waging a war against Islam?

    Western leaders insist they are not, and their choice of partners and policies backs this up. Although President Bush did once refer to the U.S. campaign against al-Qaeda as a “crusade”—a comment he hastily retracted—Bush and other Western leaders have repeatedly said that the U.S.-led coalition is waging war against al-Qaeda’s brand of global terrorism, not against Islam. “The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends,” Bush said shortly after September 11. “Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.”

    Moreover, several Western military interventions in the 1990s came to the defense of Muslims—from the 1991 Gulf War, which ended the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, to the ill-fated U.N. peacekeeping mission in Somalia, to NATO’s 1999 war to stop the “ethnic cleansing” of Muslims by Christian Serbs in Kosovo. Likewise, the U.S.-led ouster of the Taliban has improved the lives of most Afghans.

    Does the United States have Muslim partners in the war on terrorism?

    Yes. After the September 11 attacks, such key Muslim states as Egypt, the most populous Arab state; Saudi Arabia, home to Islam’s two holiest shrines; Jordan; and Pakistan supported the U.S.-led coalition in its efforts to topple Afghanistan’s Taliban rulers and uproot al-Qaeda. In June 2002, Turkey—a NATO member and a reliable U.S. ally for decades—took command of the International Security Assistance Force, the multinational peacekeeping unit in Afghanistan. Other Muslim countries such as Morocco, Malaysia, and Indonesia, which is the most populous Muslim country, have cooperated with U.S. efforts to combat al-Qaeda elsewhere. The United States also provides military and economic aid to many Muslim countries; after Israel, Egypt is the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid.

    Is a clash between Islam and the West imminent?

    Most scholars say such a clash of civilizations is unlikely—both because U.S. leaders aren’t eager to play into bin Laden’s hands and because neither Muslims nor the West are politically unified. The Islamic world is 85 percent non-Arab, and experts say its politics are dominated by self-interested states concerned more with conflicts among themselves than with the West. The long, brutal war between Iran and Iraq in the 1980s, in which Iraq used chemical weapons against Iranian troops and more than a million lives were lost, is hard to reconcile with a picture of Islam as a unified cultural force.

    Nor is the West monolithic. Europeans are highly critical of U.S. foreign policy, particularly regarding what they see as the Bush administration’s unilateralism, disengagement from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and unwarranted drive to invade Iraq.

    On all sides, individual states continue to make pragmatic decisions. Moreover, the dividing lines between the West and Islam are increasingly blurred. Through immigration and conversion, Islam is now a growing part of Western societies. An estimated 12 million Muslims live in European Union countries, and between five and seven million Muslims live in the United States. Muslims died in the World Trade Center, and after the attacks the Bush administration and local authorities around the country worked to prevent an anti-Muslim backlash. By 2010, demographers say, Islam will become the second most popular religion in the United States after Christianity.

    Copyright ©2004 Council on Foreign Relations.
    All Rights Reserved.
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  7. #7
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    They're out to conquer the world, put everyone under Sharia, and establish themselves as the amirs in a new worldwide caliphate. They've said as much. Why don't you believe them?
    May we, the people, have some proof as well, because I've never heard about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proleteriat
    Yeah, they're clearly in the same league. Let's pay homage to all those we've lost due to suicide bomb attacks from Kansas Christians.
    There's plenty of Christian terrorists. I'm sure you know this. The fact that they don't come from Kansas is unfortunate because then you'd really be wrong.
    Does this make me want to go out and start mouthing off about how Christianity kills people? No. Is it right for me to do so? No.
    I have other reasons for bashing Christianity, I don't need to complain about let's say the IRA, the ETA, etc. And believe you me there's dozens of these organizations all over Europe, and the rest of the world. I could easily blame Christianity for their actions, but is that what Jesus was all about? I don't think so, unles Orthodox Christianity(the one I grew up with) is completely different from yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proleteriat
    'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every Jihaddist is a Muslim.'
    Well every arab is a muslim, and so only they can use the word Jihad to say what they are doing.

  8. #8
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    May we, the people, have some proof as well, because I've never heard about this.
    Last I checked, I wasn't in a courtroom, and you weren't a DA. But YOU certainly may have some evidence of it. Go read any of the letters from Osama bin Laden or al Zarqawi. Every single time, they say they won't stop until we all adopt Islam, and their particular brand of Islam. You show your ignorance when you make silly charges like that.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  9. #9

    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Panzer, I most certainly agree with you that the teachings of the hateful extremist schools of Islam need to be looked at closely. I find it repellent that they are apparently able to operate in my own country, and to find new blood within our youth for their membership.
    Thats all im asking for.

    We need to differentiate between the majority of normal mosques and religious branches of Islam and the radical ones.

    Many politicians and press people dont want to even go there, it seems to be off limits as it might offend some people.

  10. #10
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Well, dont' worry too much about Saudi Arabia, they're already here, pouring in from Mexico.... I'm starting a new topic on that...
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  11. #11
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    We need to differentiate between the majority of normal mosques and religious branches of Islam and the radical ones.

    Many politicians and press people dont want to even go there, it seems to be off limits as it might offend some people.
    A lot of the more multicultural countries have behaved quite bizarrely in their softly softly approach to operational extremist schools of Islam. I can't comment on this authoritatively, though, except to say that I guess they have to be careful about alienating large sections of the community... I dunno...

    Electronically bugging churches tends to provoke a strong reaction from civil rights groups...

  12. #12
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Last I checked, I wasn't in a courtroom, and you weren't a DA. But YOU certainly may have some evidence of it. Go read any of the letters from Osama bin Laden or al Zarqawi. Every single time, they say they won't stop until we all adopt Islam, and their particular brand of Islam. You show your ignorance when you make silly charges like that.
    You're joking right? Since when is Osama binLaden(LOL!!!) the poster boy for maistream Islam. That is false to the point of being offensive.

  13. #13
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    You're joking right? Since when is Osama binLaden(LOL!!!) the poster boy for maistream Islam. That is false to the point of being offensive.
    I wasn't talking about mainstream Islam. When I said 'they' want to subjugate the world to their particular brand of Islam, I was talking about OBL and the boys.

    Edit: ~ And I SAID THAT in my post. I never referred to mainstream islam when I said 'they' were out to take over the world. I said the jihadists were. Or are YOU trying to make the point that Jihadists are mainstream Muslims?

    Quit trying to score cheap points. You're purposely misquoting me.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 07-13-2005 at 03:10.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  14. #14
    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Well every arab is a muslim, and so only they can use the word Jihad to say what they are doing.
    say what? not sure what you're trying to argue with that sentence anyway, but just fyi, not all arabs are muslim.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  15. #15
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Well every arab is a muslim, and so only they can use the word Jihad to say what they are doing.
    About 9% of Arabs are Christian...

    Reliable estimates of the number of Arab Christians, which in any case depends on the definition of "Arab" used, are rare. According to Fargues 1998, "Today Christians only make up 9.2 per cent of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon, where they have undoubtedly lost their position as the majority, they number little more than 40 per cent, 19 in Syria they are about 6.4 per cent, in the Palestinian-occupied or autonomous territories the figure is 3.8 per cent, and in Israel 2.1 per cent. In Egypt they constitute 5.9 per cent of the population, and in Iraq presumably 2.9 per cent." Most North and Latin American Arabs (about two-thirds) are Arab Christians, particularly from Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Apologist Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    Sorry Proletariat, but if it was a systemic problem, wouldn't it have been prevalent from Day 1 of the inception of Islam, and continuing throughout the entire history of the faith?
    No. Being systemic has nothing to do with inception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    Panzer, I most certainly agree with you that the teachings of the hateful extremist schools of Islam need to be looked at closely.
    Yeah, it's correcting the lack of scrutiny that will fix this.



    Quote Originally Posted by BP
    There's plenty of Christian terrorists. I'm sure you know this. The fact that they don't come from Kansas is unfortunate because then you'd really be wrong.
    Does this make me want to go out and start mouthing off about how Christianity kills people? No. Is it right for me to do so? No.
    I have other reasons for bashing Christianity, I don't need to complain about let's say the IRA, the ETA, etc. And believe you me there's dozens of these organizations all over Europe, and the rest of the world. I could easily blame Christianity for their actions, but is that what Jesus was all about? I don't think so, unles Orthodox Christianity(the one I grew up with) is completely different from yours.
    Sure. Christians commit genocide. My country had to act despite the UN to put them down, (right near you're homeland, I believe).

    I'm not Christian. I don't care about Allah, Jesus, or Yaweh.

    I understand Allah didn't say fly planes into the building. I'm not decrying their religion. Go worship tree spirits and leprechauns for all I care. I'm even dating a Doctor who is a Kurdish Muslim.

    But I'm still not going to blind myself to the major differences in Islam these days and Christianity.

    If you really believe Islam is in the same state as any other major religion, tell me wtf no one's worried about the Christian Hiroshima project?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pape
    Religious fundamentalism of all religions is a bad thing...
    Agreed! Falwell is just as much of an ass as Bin Laden. But he hasn't claimed the lives of any of my friends, like the former has.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 07-13-2005 at 17:31.

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