View Poll Results: Progress against terror

Voters
45. This poll is closed
  • Progress is better than expected

    4 8.89%
  • Progress is far too slow

    10 22.22%
  • There is no progress at all

    16 35.56%
  • We are loosing ground

    11 24.44%
  • Progress is as expected

    1 2.22%
  • I don't know/cannot judge

    3 6.67%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 52

Thread: Progress against terror

  1. #1
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Progress against terror

    Is there a progress in the war against terror or steps backwards.

    Pros:
    Killing or arresting some AQ leaders and fighters
    destruction of training camps in Afghanistan
    destruction of the Taliban regime
    ending the rule of Saddam
    no major attack inside the US
    Bin Ladn has to hide

    Cons:
    Bin Ladn still free
    AQ still active (Madrid, London)
    terrorism introduced in Iraq, number of terror fighters increased
    weakening of NATO and UN

    Did we win so far or did we loose?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I certainly expected more attacks in the US, so progress is going better than expected. Thats not to say its going as well as it could be..

  3. #3
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    The Golden Caliphate
    Posts
    1,644

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I'm not sure any progress has really been made by either side. I can't imagine a world without terrorism, but I can't see a world of total terror.

    I refuse to let these people affect my life though, so it does not concern me in the slighest.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  4. #4
    Hǫrūar Member Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hordaland, Norway
    Posts
    6,434

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    Pros:
    ending the rule of Saddam

    Cons:
    terrorism introduced in Iraq, number of terror fighters increased

    Ending the rule of Saddam have made more people die every day thanks to increased terrorism in Iraq.

    I can`t really see that as a too positive happenng in this perspective; were there really any terrorists with base in Iraq before the war?

    As to the poll I think you missed at least one option, I don`t think we can say how the war`s going for sure. I really don`t know.
    Runes for good luck:

    [1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1

  5. #5
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Sorry, I missed that.

  6. #6
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Well, if Viking gets to add his point, which I can't disagree with, I'm going to add that the war on terror didn't 'weaken NATO and the UN', they were already weak before we launched our first salvo at Afghanistan.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Running in circles in the white tower
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    There is no progress I am aware of.

    Of course one problem is to agree on how to measure progress.

    Is it the number of terrorists killed?
    Is it the number of terrorists at large (a bit hard to come up with reliable numbers here)?
    Is it the number of terrorist attacks (hardly as terrorist attacks - outside Iraq - are fortunately not frequent enough to measure "trends" in a meaningful way)?

    The fact that there was no major attack on American soil since 9/11 does not mean anything in terms of progress, as attacks on American soil have not been particularly frequent before 9/11 either.

  8. #8
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Is it the number of terrorists killed? No, that is secondaryIs it the number of terrorists at large (a bit hard to come up with reliable numbers here)? The number, their potential, their activityIs it the number of terrorist attacks Yes

  9. #9
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Oxford/London
    Posts
    1,103

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I can see no progress in addressing the causes of terrorism. Until the causes are dealt with, for every terrorist we kill or capture another one is recruited, maintaining the terrorist threat.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  10. #10
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    As to the poll I think you missed at least one option, I don`t think we can say how the war`s going for sure. I really don`t know.
    He also missed the option that progress is as you expected which is my position.

    I can see no progress in addressing the causes of terrorism
    Weve addressed that. The cause is radical Islam. How do you intend to address it?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  11. #11
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Oxford/London
    Posts
    1,103

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Weve addressed that. The cause is radical Islam. How do you intend to address it?
    I don't know. How do you intend to address it?
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  12. #12
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    915

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    If we look at the effects of each sides "Propaganda" on the level of new recruits to it's cause, you could say we are loosing ground.

    Military Recruits: Declining Possibly (Some US offices not meeting Recruitment targets)
    Terrorists Recruits: Increasing Possibly (Even country born and educated citizens can be recruited)

    However, I think on balance, the terrorist threat has remained the same, because of the tighter security imposed to balance the increasing recruits. And have voted accordingly.
    Last edited by kiwitt; 07-14-2005 at 04:06.
    We work to live, and to live is to, play "Total War" or drive a VR-4

  13. #13
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    There are no progress. As long as it's seen as a war it will continue without any actual progress.

  14. #14
    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Chi Town
    Posts
    588

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    None, fact is we are still very very vulnerable. If a radical came and convinced me to build a bomb and set it off in Chicago I, or anyone, could do it (this is of course hypothetical, no need for the black helicopters). Sure they can't get on planes and its very hard to get on trains, but buses have no real security, neither do private vehicals and I'll remind you that Oklahoma City and WTC '93 both used private vehicals and caused extensive damage. So in the measure that matters (posssibility of us getting blown up) we are about as vulnerable as we have always been.
    Sometimes I slumber on a bed of roses
    Sometimes I crash in the weeds
    One day a bowl full of cherries
    One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
    -Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers, Lemons

  15. #15
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    [QUOTE=Gawain of Orkeny]He also missed the option that progress is as you expected which is my position.
    [QUOTE]
    I did!
    Is there a way to change this?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Running in circles in the white tower
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    Is there a way to change this?
    Yes, there is - I added two more options (as suggested by Red Harvest and Gawain).

    I am not sure if this option is limited to moderators - to you have an "Edit Poll" option (at the upper, righr corner of the poll - rather small)?
    If so you can use that one to add/edit poll choices

  17. #17
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Thank you!
    You saved my day!

  18. #18
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I think we are loosing ground. Fighting terror is never easy and I takes long. We had this experience in the 70ies and 80ies.

    However I do not think that we have a good performance.

    The US is the natural leader in this fight. They were hit hardest, they are the main target and they are the strongest nation. And they have been the leader of the free world since WW2.
    But they cannot fulfill this role. They still suffer from the wounds of 9/11. Since 9/11 they are much too self focused to lead. They feel a big mistrust in their traditional allies. They are not willing and able to give up control neither to their allies nor to the UN.
    They have the strongest army by far. And they try to rely on this army to fight terror. But a conventional army is not the right weapon to do this. Israel had to learn that. For me they had the best army but they could not win the intifada.
    The US attacked Iraq. Saddam was an ugly dictator and getting rid of him is a good thing. He might even have been supporting the Hamas or other terror groups. But the link to AQ is weak and it is sad to see that most of the efforts are spend to fight in Iraq.
    The US diplomacy alienated the allies. They could not support the American war in Iraq. However, they haven't managed to find their own way to fight the terror. So they are completly ineffective.

    AQ had some bad days after the Afghanistan fightings. Their training camps were destroit and their leaders were chased. I think even the attack on their financial structure was a success.
    Since then they recovered. Bin Ladn could escape and is still free. This is unbelievable. The focus on Iraq gave them a break. And it gave them an ideal recruitment opportunity.
    The fightings in Afghanistan are still going on. After the US put their focus to Iraq Taliban is gaining ground again. I think the western forces can keep a stand off but I do not see a successful end of the operations in Afghanistan.

    The war in Iraq was started and now it has to be fought until the successful end. But it will tie the American forces for a long time.
    I think it is time that the free world and all their allies and friends share the tasks. The US should fight in Iraq until there is a stable and free nation. The European should focus on AQ.
    How could they manage this? The UN is damaged after the Iraq war and not accepted by the Americans. The EU is not in a constitution to lead. So one of the big European nations has to lead. GB is too much involved in Iraq. Germany is willing to support but not willing to lead. France would be the ideal leader for the European. They have a lot of expierience with moslems and islam countries, they have a good armiy that is used to fight in other countries. They will be accepted by all other Europeans and all non Europeans as well.
    And we have to get Bin Ladn. How can the world be big enough to escape?

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,651

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I think we are losing ground, primarily because the Iraq invasion has created a lot more terrorists. At least some of the insurgents, e.g. those associated with Al Zarqawi, are clearly terrorists in the OBL mold and the number of attacks they are committing seems very high. The fact that those attacks are in Iraq and the US is irrelevant to me.

    Toppling the Taliban and so ending their support for AQ bases was a major victory. But I can't help feel we did not follow through. Partly because many of the terrorists, eg OBL escaped, and partly because I don't think we are supporting the new regime enough. Already the Taliban seem to be making something of a come back.

    There's a lot still to play for, though. A stable democratic Iraq and Afghanistan would be major victories, if they can be secured. However, I can't help thinking that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Algeria are more important breeding grounds for terrorism and it's not clear anything much is being done to change that situation.

  20. #20
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    London, England.
    Posts
    11,058

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    We are clearly loosing ground, when 4 years nearly after Sept 11 we can have attacks in the middle east with the hatred and fire there still is, attacks in the west with the same hatred and the continual and growing anti US / west feeling, we are making no progress.

    Many on these boards think that 'no attack on US = we are winning!' That just shows certain peoples complete self centered, backward thinking that causes the problems in the first place and their complete lack of regard for anyone bar their own.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  21. #21

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Whoa, there are new poll options on here, i didnt know you could edit a poll..

    Many on these boards think that 'no attack on US = we are winning!' That just shows certain peoples complete self centered, backward thinking that causes the problems in the first place and their complete lack of regard for anyone bar their own.
    If you're refering to me that is not the case at all. I expected plenty more attacks in the US and there havent been any. The shift to Europe occasionally and the mideast primarily is a good step in my opinion.

    Quite frankly Europe is an easier target. Its closer to the mideast, there are much larger muslim communities, and immigration and visas are easier in Europe. I dont like that and I hardly think that its a good thing theyve started attacking in Europe instead of the US, but I do think the shift to easier targets is a good sign.. not too mention the fact that they are trying to defeat the strongest military coalition in the world at the same time.. there are only so many jihaddis to go around.

  22. #22
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    There might be also other reasons for that.
    Terror always tries to strike where you do not expect it. This increases the terror. After 9/11 there were two strikes in Europe. I guess many Americans think like you and that increases the chance of an attack.
    QBL offered a cheasefire to Europe. They rejected and now he thinks he has to react.

  23. #23
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    I really dont know,whether we are winning or loosing.I just dont have the nessecerily data available to form up an opinion.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  24. #24
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nowhere...
    Posts
    11,757

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    progress is as i expected.....No real progress...terrorism is as guerilla warfare impossible to win for those who are not one of the guerilla/terrorism fighters....terrorism is winning cuz as the name says they want to frighten people...and almost everyone in the western world is hiding in they're basements.

    We do not sow.

  25. #25
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    We actually won the fight against the RAF.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    are the Red Army Faction still around?

  27. #27
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    No!
    They even think to pardon the first.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Running in circles in the white tower
    Posts
    6,605

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    We actually won the fight against the RAF.
    But they never were more than just a couple of people - and I almost have the feeling that the defeat was rather a mixture of "us" catching some of them and "them" kind of losing interest in their fight.

  29. #29
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Trying to get to Utopia
    Posts
    3,482

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    But they never were more than just a couple of people - and I almost have the feeling that the defeat was rather a mixture of "us" catching some of them and "them" kind of losing interest in their fight.
    I agree. But maybe that is the silver bullet. Make them loose interest in fighting us.
    By the way, I think the end of the USSR helped a lot.
    I just mentioned it to show that there is at least one example that one can overcome terror.

  30. #30
    Hǫrūar Member Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hordaland, Norway
    Posts
    6,434

    Default Re: Progress against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Yes, there is - I added two more options (as suggested by Red Harvest and Gawain).
    What about me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    I am not sure if this option is limited to moderators - to you have an "Edit Poll" option (at the upper, righr corner of the poll - rather small)?
    That`s for moderators only, can you have a talk with Tosa about that?
    Runes for good luck:

    [1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO