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Thread: Bill of Rights

  1. #1
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Bill of Rights

    Just read a book last night and it reminded me of something I learned at school but forgot somewhere on the way.
    After the War of Independance the Americans formed a new kind of society. The fundament was the believe, that the state is formed by the people. So first there were people. Then they agreed to form a society. (Sounds obvious, but at that time, it was not!)
    The individuals had certain right before they joined the new state. These rights are listed in the Bill of Rights. They were not given by a government nor can they be taken away. The only role of the government is to protect those individual rights. If the government fails, the people have the right to fire it. I think this is even a reason why having weapons is an important right in the US.
    Did I get it right?

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Actually this is one of the only reasons i see that we really need guns. They are to protect the citizens from the government. It is the same reason for the protection of privacy gauranteed by many of the rights. In a society where the government is perfect then these rights wouldnt be needed, but if the government was ever to be corrupted then these rights should gaurantee the citezens protection.

    Unfortuantly, the rights in the Bill of Rights can be taken away at any time by the government which the patriot act has proven...

  3. #3
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
    Unfortuantly, the rights in the Bill of Rights can be taken away at any time by the government which the patriot act has proven...
    I thought they could not. Wasn't the idea that the right stand above the government and the government is not allow to touch them?

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    Just read a book last night and it reminded me of something I learned at school but forgot somewhere on the way.
    After the War of Independance the Americans formed a new kind of society. The fundament was the believe, that the state is formed by the people. So first there were people. Then they agreed to form a society. (Sounds obvious, but at that time, it was not!)
    The individuals had certain right before they joined the new state. These rights are listed in the Bill of Rights. They were not given by a government nor can they be taken away. The only role of the government is to protect those individual rights. If the government fails, the people have the right to fire it. I think this is even a reason why having weapons is an important right in the US.
    Did I get it right?
    Dead on, imo. Our rights our inalienable, whereas some people in other country's seem to get their rights from their governments as concessions.

  5. #5
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    Just read a book last night and it reminded me of something I learned at school but forgot somewhere on the way.
    After the War of Independance the Americans formed a new kind of society. The fundament was the believe, that the state is formed by the people. So first there were people. Then they agreed to form a society. (Sounds obvious, but at that time, it was not!)
    The individuals had certain right before they joined the new state. These rights are listed in the Bill of Rights. They were not given by a government nor can they be taken away. The only role of the government is to protect those individual rights. If the government fails, the people have the right to fire it. I think this is even a reason why having weapons is an important right in the US.
    Did I get it right?
    Exactly.

    True power derives from a mandate from the people, not from some farsical aquatic ceremony

    ichi
    Stay Calm, Be Alert, Think Clearly, Act Decisively

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  6. #6
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Dead on, imo. Our rights our inalienable, whereas some people in other country's seem to get their rights from their governments as concessions.
    This is something you can really be proud of

    Does anybody remember the Human Rights thread I started here some time ago. I had the impression that most of the Americans deny that there are rights you have before a government gives it to you. Were I wrong or were they just kidding?

    So if US soldiers fight for freedom somewhere in the world that means exactly that they bring the people the opportunity to live according to the natural rights as written in the Bill of Rights. Now I think I got it.

    But I understand less than ever how the US government can say that the prisoners at Gitmo do not have these rights.

  7. #7
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    In theory, you're certainly right, Franconius. But if you ask most people, in practice, it's what the government feels like granting you today. The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution to mean whatever they want it to mean, including the Bill of Rights, and they've interpreted it to mean "Congress can pretty much do as they damn well please". There isn't one of the 10 ammendments in the Bill of Rights that Congress has enacted a law limiting the scope of the original text in some way. It is very, very rare for SCOTUS to find for the individual. They almost always find for expanding the powers of Congress, whether that jibes with the Bill of Rights or not.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 07-14-2005 at 15:33.
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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Well you know I still have Gawain's offer to join the US with the rest of the world. I would if the BoR is the fundament. Maybe I demand that the government is changed and the Supreme Court suspended. Yes, if he wants me to be in, that is what he has to do

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    But I understand less than ever how the US government can say that the prisoners at Gitmo do not have these rights
    The same way those in jail loose their rights. There are exceptions to every rule.

    Unfortuantly, the rights in the Bill of Rights can be taken away at any time by the government which the patriot act has proven...
    You really think the government could take away the bill of rights? Not without causing another revolution they couldnt.
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    The same way those in jail loose their rights. There are exceptions to every rule.
    If the Bill of Rights describes inalienable human rights, and you are saying that people who go to jail lose these rights (are you sure about that, anyway?), then you must be saying that anybody in jail is no longer human. Would you say that becuase someone shoplifted that they are no longer human?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    You really think the government could take away the bill of rights? Not without causing another revolution they couldnt.
    I think that the point that was made was that Governments have not so much removed the Bill of Rights, but rather have ignored it.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  11. #11
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    If the Bill of Rights describes inalienable human rights, and you are saying that people who go to jail lose these rights (are you sure about that, anyway?),
    I sure a Ive been there. If you think youve got the same rights in jail as you do on the outside your sadly mistaken. Wheres your LIBERTY for starts?

    then you must be saying that anybody in jail is no longer human.
    NO Im not.

    Would you say that becuase someone shoplifted that they are no longer human?
    Nope and they probably wont be in jail if its their first time. This is a silly way to argue this point. If your locked in a cell you sure arent getting all the rights of regular citizens.
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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    They would argue that they are restricting your rights temporarily in order to protect them for the future. Pretty much all democracies will have measures in place to suspend the constitution / your rights in the event of a national emergency. The Roman Republic had the senatus consultum ultimum for example.

    It's just a sad fact that free citizens are not as safe as those living under tighter controls.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  13. #13
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    It's just a sad fact that free citizens are not as safe as those living under tighter controls.
    Its true and ironic. Indeed you are safer from harm in jail than on the street. Its my main theme. Freedom costs lives. How much freedom are you willing to pay for is the real question.
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    The same way those in jail loose their rights. There are exceptions to every rule.
    This is not an exception, I must disagree. No where does the BoR apply to non-US citizens.

  15. #15
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    This is not an exception, I must disagree. No where does the BoR apply to non-US citizens.
    Its an exception as far as US citizens losing their rights in jail. I agree that the BoR dosent extend to those not citizens here but thats not the premise thats being disscussed. Its do we believe that everyone in the world has or should have these rights. I believe they should Therfore it apllies in ths disscussion as to whether they should be treated as if they were citizens. Again I believe those in Gitmo are being treated better than the arverage US citizen is who are being held in US jails.
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Its an exception as far as US citizens losing their rights in jail.
    I don't think that US citizens lose their rights when they go to jail, more that certain rights are suspended in order to protect the rights of others (e.g. liberty suspended to protect others' right to safety). Going to jail does not automatically remove the person's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Again I believe those in Gitmo are being treated better than the arverage US citizen is who are being held in US jails.
    If this is the case then I would be very concerned about the state of US jails.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  17. #17
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    I don't think that US citizens lose their rights when they go to jail, more that certain rights are suspended in order to protect the rights of others (e.g. liberty suspended to protect others' right to safety). Going to jail does not automatically remove the person's rights.
    It removes most of the important ones like liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Also the right to drive to vote and to even eat when or what you would like. The only rights you reall have left are those that apply to the courts and your life.

    If this is the case then I would be very concerned about the state of US jails.
    I seriously doubt that prisoners in your countries jails are treated as well as those at Gitmo either.
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  18. #18
    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    People don't need guns to be protected from their government. They just need lots of lawyers. And America has lots of them. They might not actually save freedoms, but they delay it long enough.

  19. #19
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    It removes most of the important ones like liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Also the right to drive to vote and to even eat when or what you would like. The only rights you reall have left are those that apply to the courts and your life.
    As I said, these rights are more suspended until the person's release, in order to protect the rights of others/due to practicality (it's quite hard to choose what you want to eat in jail). And is there actually a right to drive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I seriously doubt that prisoners in your countries jails are treated as well as those at Gitmo either.
    I very much doubt that. Apart from the fact that they don't have to wear orange suits, face interrogation and the fact that they are allowed to go outside for a reasonable length of time, people in British jails actually know why they are in them. They have the right to trial before being sent to jail, and they have the right to appeal against a court's decision.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  20. #20
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by BDC
    People don't need guns to be protected from their government. They just need lots of lawyers. And America has lots of them. They might not actually save freedoms, but they delay it long enough.
    Actually the US Congress is made up of around 45 percent lawyers.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  21. #21
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    As I said, these rights are more suspended until the person's release, in order to protect the rights of others/due to practicality (it's quite hard to choose what you want to eat in jail). And is there actually a right to drive?
    Its the same for those in Gitmo who never had some of these rights in their own countries.

    I very much doubt that. Apart from the fact that they don't have to wear orange suits,
    They dont wear uniforms in jails over there? Our county jail inmates wear them and guess what? There international bright orange ones.

    face interrogation
    Believe me if they think you have information concerning a crime you will be interogated there. Also you may face it if your not sentenced yet. Yes we have millions of people in jail who have not yet been convicted of any crime and Im sure you do also.

    they are allowed to go outside for a reasonable length of time,
    So are these guys. Have you seen their soccer field. Hey were talking Camp Gitmo here I will garuntee you the food is better than your inmates get. I hear its even better than the guards get.

    people in British jails actually know why they are in them
    Yes these poor blokes were minding there own bussines just visiting afghanistan when our evil army swooped and and sent them to Gitmo. They damn well know why their there even if you dont.

    They have the right to trial before being sent to jail, and they have the right to appeal against a court's decision.
    THEIR not enemy combatants. Just for your information I saw a show on how they interogate prisoners. Do you know who taught them most of their tricks. Yeah the British . It seems the IRA has made you very good at this sort of thing.
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  22. #22
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Nm.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 07-14-2005 at 22:46. Reason: Diplomatic Corleone.

  23. #23
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    I think he meant it was surprising that it wasn't 95%.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  24. #24
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Originally Posted by Al Khalifah
    Actually the US Congress is made up of around 45 percent lawyers.
    Wow is that all. I thought it was like 85 %

    Dont really matter as after they get there their all the same. A fookin bunch of crooks.
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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    What is your perception of lawyers? I bet you think they are all rich and after your money, no?

  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    I bet you think they are all rich and after your money, no?
    No as I dont nave any

    But I do think they are all rich and after someone elses money, no?
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  27. #27
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    The best your average lawyer will do is a BMW, my friend. Only the best coming out of Columbia, Harvard, Yale, etc. will be the rich ones...or senators

  28. #28
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    I thought they could not. Wasn't the idea that the right stand above the government and the government is not allow to touch them?
    They certainly can be taken away. The patriot act breaks the right against unreasonable searches and seizures.

  29. #29
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    They certainly can be taken away. The patriot act breaks the right against unreasonable searches and seizures.
    No it dosent
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill of Rights

    So random searches arent unreasonable????? Thats the whole point of the amendment...

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