China getting uppity over Taiwan again... hardliner invokes the 'N' word

[Papewaio]

Taiwan belongs to China irregardless of what type of government it has.

Actually it would work the other way round. KMT used to rule China and Taiwan. Communist China has never ruled Taiwan. Hence KMT has claim to China and Taiwan. The only 'justification' would be based on racial lines that all Chinese must be ruled by Communist China, which I'm sure Singapore would disagree with.

However KMT doesn't even rule Taiwan anymore. Taiwan is a fledgeling democracy now and has the a Green party President. He doesn't claim that China belongs to Taiwan or the other way round.

China is acting like a bully that is being denied someone elses toy. As such the bully should be put in its place. To give Taiwan to China would be the same as giving Yugoslavia to Nazi Germany. In fact it would be worse as this act of appeasement would be done justified not on morals but markets.

[Roark]

Agreed. Their claim over Taiwan is as feeble as it was over Tibet in the 40's.

[Efrem]

You don't appease totaliterian regimes, you depose totaliterian regimes.

[Don Corleone]

I actually started a thread along these lines simultaneously. Mine has a poll, but I think I've got the answers I expected/desired anyway, so if you want to merge the other thread in here, that probably makes sense.

[lars573]

Agreed. Their claim over Taiwan is as feeble as it was over Tibet in the 40's.

50's, truth is I'm for China's annexation of Tibet. They brought some sembelance of the modern world to a backward hill kingdom. And before anyone says what I'm supporting I already know (in a fair ammount of detail, but feel free to enlighten me if you wish), and I don't care. The PRC is stong and willful enough to have Tibet and they are their fore entitled to it. Even if Tibet hadn't been taken over by China they probably would have had a communist uprising and be as bad off as outer Mongolia is now.

Actually it would work the other way round. KMT used to rule China and Taiwan. Communist China has never ruled Taiwan. Hence KMT has claim to China and Taiwan. The only 'justification' would be based on racial lines that all Chinese must be ruled by Communist China, which I'm sure Singapore would disagree with.

However KMT doesn't even rule Taiwan anymore. Taiwan is a fledgeling democracy now and has the a Green party President. He doesn't claim that China belongs to Taiwan or the other way round.

China is acting like a bully that is being denied someone elses toy. As such the bully should be put in its place. To give Taiwan to China would be the same as giving Yugoslavia to Nazi Germany. In fact it would be worse as this act of appeasement would be done justified not on morals but markets.

See the genis of the PRC claim is that Taiwan was given to the Chinese state. When that mean't the KMT the world was willing and ready to go along with it. When that came to mean the PRC, suddenly their is a huge problem. In one instant it goes from Taiwan is part of China to no it's not your dirty godless commies you can't have it. so saying the PRC has no right to Taiwan is horse shit, their never having ruled doesn't enter into it. Taiwans leaders need to be served 3 scoops of reality flavored ice cream with wake and smell the coffe sprinkles. Their continued health and properity depends on the mood the PRC is in when they take over the place. They need to abandon all hope of independence and settle for Hong Kongs deal, it's the best they're going to get.

[Don Corleone]

50's, truth is I'm for China's annexation of Tibet. They brought some sembelance of the modern world to a backward hill kingdom. And before anyone says what I'm supporting I already know (in a fair ammount of detail, but feel free to enlighten me if you wish), and I don't care. The PRC is stong and willful enough to have Tibet and they are their fore entitled to it. Even if Tibet hadn't been taken over by China they probably would have had a communist uprising and be as bad off as outer Mongolia is now.




See the genis of the PRC claim is that Taiwan was given to the Chinese state. When that mean't the KMT the world was willing and ready to go along with it. When that came to mean the PRC, suddenly their is a huge problem. In one instant it goes from Taiwan is part of China to no it's not your dirty godless commies you can't have it. so saying the PRC has no right to Taiwan is horse shit, their never having ruled doesn't enter into it. Taiwans leaders need to be served 3 scoops of reality flavored ice cream with wake and smell the coffe sprinkles. Their continued health and properity depends on the mood the PRC is in when they take over the place. They need to abandon all hope of independence and settle for Hong Kongs deal, it's the best they're going to get.

One of the big reasons we're still there protecting Taiwan is they won't ever get Hong Kong's deal. From day 1, it was always going to be about punishing the Taiwanese for branching off in the first place. There ain't going to be no 'with Malice towards none' reunification, it's going to make Reconstruction look like a walk in the park in comparison. The Chinese (when they'll discuss it at all) are pretty clear on this. Some are in favor of it, some don't like it, but all agree, it will be hell on Earth in Taiwan when the PLA takes over. Look at what they did in Tibet, and Tibet wasn't even a rebellious province, they just resisted 'incorporation' too long. Taiwan's government is viewed as traitors, and any Taiwanese w/ half a brain & some cash should have a 'get off the island plan' when things start going South.

Oh, and by the way, the Chinese are pretty clear that in their minds, Mongolia is a province too.

[lars573]

Oh, and by the way, the Chinese are pretty clear that in their minds, Mongolia is a province too.

Ruling a place for 200 or 300 years will give you that attitude. I honestly think that the US trade deal is the only thing keeping PLA forces out of Mongolia. I can't and won't believe for one second that the PRC gives flying fork what the rest of the world thinks of what they do.

[Don Corleone]

Well, they never ruled Indochina, and that's on their radar screen as well. They've never gotten over Vietnam invading & taking their guy out in Kampuchea. The Chinese people are great, friendly, warm and very industrious. But their government seems like it's from another planet. Incredibly expansionist, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they have a few plans for North America (and the rest of the globe for that matter).

Maybe as more & more business tycoons develop, they'll get enough pull to keep the party officials & generals in line.

[Roark]

50's, truth is I'm for China's annexation of Tibet. They brought some sembelance of the modern world to a backward hill kingdom. And before anyone says what I'm supporting I already know (in a fair ammount of detail, but feel free to enlighten me if you wish), and I don't care. The PRC is stong and willful enough to have Tibet and they are their fore entitled to it. Even if Tibet hadn't been taken over by China they probably would have had a communist uprising and be as bad off as outer Mongolia is now.

Wow...

I find that really... repellent.

1.25 million deaths. Many under torture.

Still, you're certainly entitled to your "might is right" opinion (as a white male who lives in a first-world country under zero threat of invasion).

I appreciate that you had the guts to speak your mind honestly about it, though...

[lars573]

Well, they never ruled Indochina, and that's on their radar screen as well. They've never gotten over Vietnam invading & taking their guy out in Kampuchea. The Chinese people are great, friendly, warm and very industrious. But their government seems like it's from another planet. Incredibly expansionist, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they have a few plans for North America (and the rest of the globe for that matter).

Maybe as more & more business tycoons develop, they'll get enough pull to keep the party officials & generals in line.

Most of the PRC territorial assertions are based on this.


It's a map of Ch'ing (pronounced Qing or Manchu if you prefer) dynasty China before it's weakness (or backwardness) led the european powers and Japan eat it for lunch. As you can see Taiwan, outer Mongolian, and Tibet are all part of the fold. Now I have no idea why the borders of the Manchu dynasty are something to aim for by the PRC but that seems to be their goal.

Wow...

I find that really... repellent.

1.25 million deaths. Many under torture.

Still, you're certainly entitled to your "might is right" opinion (as a white male who lives in a first-world country under zero threat of invasion).

I appreciate that you had the guts to speak your mind honestly about it, though...

And most of you assume that Tibet wouldn't have had those 1.25 million deaths if they had been independent. You assume that Tibet could have managed it's own affairs with that worhtless theocrate on his throne. Tibet was aching for someone to come along and give it the right good kicking it needed, the PRC just got there before a home grown someone could come emerge.

And BTW might always makes right (no matter how it is cloaked).

[Papewaio]

50's, truth is I'm for China's annexation of Tibet. They brought some sembelance of the modern world to a backward hill kingdom. And before anyone says what I'm supporting I already know (in a fair ammount of detail, but feel free to enlighten me if you wish), and I don't care. The PRC is stong and willful enough to have Tibet and they are their fore entitled to it. Even if Tibet hadn't been taken over by China they probably would have had a communist uprising and be as bad off as outer Mongolia is now.

See the genis of the PRC claim is that Taiwan was given to the Chinese state. When that mean't the KMT the world was willing and ready to go along with it. When that came to mean the PRC, suddenly their is a huge problem. In one instant it goes from Taiwan is part of China to no it's not your dirty godless commies you can't have it. so saying the PRC has no right to Taiwan is horse shit, their never having ruled doesn't enter into it. Taiwans leaders need to be served 3 scoops of reality flavored ice cream with wake and smell the coffe sprinkles. Their continued health and properity depends on the mood the PRC is in when they take over the place. They need to abandon all hope of independence and settle for Hong Kongs deal, it's the best they're going to get.

Taiwan was part of Japan and then after WWII KMT acquired it. At no point has Communist China ruled Taiwan.

Your analogy with Tibet is very poor. As is the one with Hong Kong. Hong Kong was leased by Britain and it made a deal with Mainland China that it would have the right to democracy under the parent communist state. Communist China has reneged on those deals.

Maybe PRC should realise that its continued existence relies on it being a faithful trading partner to the west and that attempted invasions of democracies will not be tolerated with appeasement.

[Ja'chyra]

[QUOTE=Papewaio] Hong Kong was leased by Britain and it made a deal with Mainland China that it would have the right to democracy under the parent communist state. Communist China has reneged on those deals. [QUOTE]

Not quite, Honk Kong itself was owned by us after being part of a deal where China gave us the land and we agreed not to kill anymore Chinese, for a while at least. The part that was leased was to the north, we agreed to hand everything back because the vast majority of the workers in British Hong Kong lived in the leased part, and, let's face it, we bottled it.

[Beirut]

50's, truth is I'm for China's annexation of Tibet. They brought some sembelance of the modern world to a backward hill kingdom.

The PRC is stong and willful enough to have Tibet and they are their fore entitled to it.

I would venture to say that you are the only Haligonian with that opinion.

I would also venture to say you are the only Nova Scotian with that opinion.

I would venture, yet again, to say you are the only Canadian with that opinion.

If I may stress the point and venture another venture, I would say you are possibly the only person in the world, outside of the Chinese government, to have that opinion.

Well, there is something to be said for being unique.