Historical Data for Bi??

[player1]

To sum up all the arguments that the "warrior priest are real"

Not warrior priests, but support priests that are behind the lines (like genral not some fictive red line), if player is smart, boosting morale before, and at the beggining of the battle.

sure if they were going to fight, which some did, they would probably use clubs, but they didnt fight

Proof?

Seriusly, the way it is implemented, you would not fight with these units. They carry weapons just in case that battles lines get breached.

[King of Atlantis]

Not warrior priests, but support priests that are behind the lines (like genral not some fictive red line), if player is smart, boosting morale before, and at the beggining of the battle.

yah, but how smart do you think the AI is.

Proof?

Seriusly, the way it is implemented, you would not fight with these units. They carry weapons just in case that battles lines get breached.

Again, it is impossible to prove something didnt happen, i cant prove romans werent really from mars cause not source will say "the Romans were not from MArs"

That means it up for you to prove that priest carried weapons with them on average.

Preist came in using all their might carrying some huge cross.

[player1]

yah, but how smart do you think the AI is.

Well, that's the question, how CA imporved AI?
There was the same problem with Screeching woman.
Or maybe AI would realize that poor attack/defense units shodul stay back?

Preist came in using all their might carrying some huge cross.

Actually, that's more unrealistic.
Bunch of priests all carring big heavy crosses. Get tired up pretty quckly.

On the other hand when having group of priests, one elder, several apprentices, you could see one carring big cross and several other varius cargo. That's more realistic. And club is peasant weapon, also apropriate for emergency.


P.S.
Of course, we are talking about priests that accompanied army, not priests in general.

[Horatius]

Speaking out of a historical perspective shouldn't Romans be allowed to build as many temples to as many gods as they want in their cities?

Shouldn't there be two civil wars, one won by Sulla, one by Caeser?

[King of Atlantis]

Well, that's the question, how CA imporved AI?
There was the same problem with Screeching woman.
Or maybe AI would realize that poor attack/defense units shodul stay back?

dont count on them staying back

Actually, that's more unrealistic.
Bunch of priests all carring big heavy crosses. Get tired up pretty quckly.

On the other hand when having group of priests, one elder, several apprentices, you could see one carring big cross and several other varius cargo. That's more realistic. And club is peasant weapon, also apropriate for emergency.


P.S.
Of course, we are talking about priests that accompanied army, not priests in general.

Give one referance that preist in the army routinally carried around big clubs and then i might believe this isnt all a bunch of B.S.

[player1]

Well you already know the story that those priests that used weapons usually used bludgeoning weapons (for "religious" reasons).

As for refernce find me the one that roman peasants routinally used the kinfes as their weapons.

Or that gaul warbands always used spear and loingshield/

Priests were never an organized unit, and thus never had uniformed waepons, when needed to defend.

But, you know that RTW engine only supports clone troops.
So to represent priests on battlefiled that need to look like organized unit.

[The_Doctor]

Maybe they could carry a big cross and crucify people.

They should be retinue character that gives units a moral boost.

[King of Atlantis]

Well you already know the story that those priests that used weapons usually used bludgeoning weapons (for "religious" reasons).

As for refernce find me the one that roman peasants routinally used the kinfes as their weapons.

Or that gaul warbands always used spear and loingshield/

Priests were never an organized unit, and thus never had uniformed waepons, when needed to defend.

But, you know that RTW engine only supports clone troops.
So to represent priests on battlefiled that need to look like organized unit.

give me one source were the routinly used any weapon. Sure some did, especially in the viking raids in england, but that is not common. If you want an organized unit thats right give them no weapon.


martinus thats what Ca should have done.

[player1]

Common sense dictates that someone near the front is not more stupid then peasant.

And since common sense is that romans haven't came from mars, it doesn't need the reference.

[King of Atlantis]

preast were not near the front when the actual battle is fought.

common sense would say julius ceaser wouldnt have walked to the senate when he knew of an assasination plot. Wait a minute historians must be wrong cause of common sense. Cesear never was assasinated , yeah!

[player1]

Well, these are, and thus common sense dictates that they need some weapon.

[King of Atlantis]

once again you cant decide on history by common sense.

btw, "well these are", are you admitting that these units are fake now?

[Horatius]

How do you guys know they weren't carrying staffs like walking sticks?

I like talking about these things because I know a great deal about Ancient Rome, however you guys really are taking the priests look way too seriously.

[King of Atlantis]

How do you guys know they weren't carrying staffs like walking sticks?

I like talking about these things because I know a great deal about Ancient Rome, however you guys really are taking the priests look way too seriously.

Dont know, but a walking stick isnt a spiked club

Your not taking this serious enough

[Horatius]

Dont know, but a walking stick isnt a spiked club

Your not taking this serious enough

If it was a spiked club then your right it wasn't a walking stick.

Still barbarian invasion is very early in design, so I highly doubt that everything will remain the same for release.

[King of Atlantis]

They arnt too early in design, it is supposed to come out in a couple months.

[Productivity]

If you don't like CA, the game, or how they are designing the game use your "choice" not to play it and stop complaining. If you don't like the unit, don't use it.

I will stop complaining once they give me a refund for R:TW.

[Productivity]

I remeber when I was playing 2nd edition AD&D, and it had restictions for cleric to only use bludgeoning weapons, since as priest they should not split blood or something. I wonder is it based on some historical order or something (I doubts RPG guys invented something like this), but could explain club armed priests.

Or alternatively it could be a common sense way to stop priests being ridiculously overpowered.

When you are using AD&D as a reference in your argument, it is seriously weak.

[Mongoose]

I will stop complaining once they give me a refund for R:TW.

If you don't like it, stop Bi***ing and travel back in time to warn your self not to buy it.

[Horatius]

They arnt too early in design, it is supposed to come out in a couple months.

Ok so they messed up on how one unit will look.

I still challenge you to find one game with superior graohics.

The priest attachment to the army helping it morally while not fighting is realistic, it seems like your complaining about the look, yet try to find games that have looks nearly as good as this one.

Try scrolling your view down to your army during a battle you will see what I mean, it is really nice to see the battle close up.

[King of Atlantis]

I and no one else is compliaing how they look, they shouldnt be able fight at all.

[CMcMahon]

Does it have a holy hand grenade?

As an upgrade, yes, but you can only get that upgrade in Antioch.

[King of Atlantis]

You guys should pm this idea to CA, i mean can anybody here find a source that says warrior priest didnt use the holy hand gernade?

[CMcMahon]

- One! Two! Five!
- Three, sir.
- Three!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

While the discussion has mainly focused on the battlefield priests and wether or not they are suspect from a realism aspect.
But what hasn't been looked at is what priests DO. I'm sorry, but I find a little hard to believe that troops engaged in a battle would notice a group of dress wearing men waving crosses, let alone take heart from tem. They noise of battle would prevent it. This IMO strengthens the case for making priests retinue only because realisticly your only chance to show your men that God is on your side is prior to battle. Once battle is joined priest would find it impossible to make any impact what-so-ever. What are the priests going to do? Tap a soldier on the shoulder mid battle, asking him about God? I don't thinks so.

[SMZ]

http://www.usachcs.army.mil/history/brief/chapter_1.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chaplain
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/newre...ote=1&p=847817

^as those links show, militant priesthoods, armed holy men, etc have been a part of military action almost as long as humans can remember and the Christian Church by this point in history was no different... there's your "proof", I expect it to receive the same welcome as "logic"...

somebody else already posted giving examples of holy men being slaughtered at various battles, it's evident they were close enough to the conflict to be reached easily

as to what they would do Elmar, it's the same thing any morale boosting prescence does... when the general sends his men forward to fight but remains in the rear this is never beneficial to morale and usually negative... the same with a holy man who promises victory and then scuttles away for safety. If victory is assured, why would he need to leave? Thus a holy man remaining near the army assures them that God(s) are with them and even if mayhaps He would overlook their own poor sinful forms, surely He will protect His holy servant.

EDIT: King of Atlantis - what is the point in babbling about holy hand grenades? Do you think it's equally as absurd for a clergyman to carry a club as a grenade?

Well then I have a short exercise for you. Go look at a picture of the Pope. He STILL carries a club.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

as to what they would do Elmar, it's the same thing any morale boosting prescence does... when the general sends his men forward to fight but remains in the rear this is never beneficial to morale and usually negative... the same with a holy man who promises victory and then scuttles away for safety. If victory is assured, why would he need to leave? Thus a holy man remaining near the army assures them that God(s) are with them and even if mayhaps He would overlook their own poor sinful forms, surely He will protect His holy servant.

My point being, if you are hacking away at some dude and that dude is hacking away at you, you'd be hard pressed to notice thew second coming of Christ behind you, never mind a clutch of chanting priests. With adrenaline gushing out of your ears and the din of battle you aren't going to be aware of much of anything. Thus having some dudes wander over behind you and then their chanting leading to a nagical morale boost would be a little unrealistic.

That the debateis so heated is (I suspect) because CA was told by the vast majority of posters here, at TWC and .com to not do those units with dubious historical accuracy during RTW and again CA chose not to listen. With CA not listening to their core fans it's hard not to get a little exasperated when you see something else you don't like.

And as a seperate point: I'm a bit tired of the whole balance versus fun/playability debate because saying there is a balance to strike is a weak excuse for not making it both realistic and fun. Look at Combat Mission, it's very realistic but still a good weeze to play.

[conon394]

SMZ

But your links seem to me to support the ideal of a retinue approach and/or a single priest attached to a general or unit, rather than the cluster of priests units.

[Viking]

@ King of Atlantis

If you KNOW that priests did not step out on the battlefield nor carrying clubs,
then you MUST have source that you read somewhere so that you can rule it out, otherwise you cannot KNOW, just SPECULATE about it. Now, show me a source about roman priests from that time period that DEFINATELY rule out that this could not exist.

[King of Atlantis]

As i have said many times it is impossible to give a source that says someone didnt do something and i still havent seen a link that it did..