Historical Data for Bi??

**CMcMahon** · 07-16-2005, 08:23

- One! Two! Five!
- Three, sir.
- Three!

**Elmar Bijlsma** · 07-16-2005, 09:54

While the discussion has mainly focused on the battlefield priests and wether or not they are suspect from a realism aspect.
But what hasn't been looked at is what priests DO. I'm sorry, but I find a little hard to believe that troops engaged in a battle would notice a group of dress wearing men waving crosses, let alone take heart from tem. They noise of battle would prevent it. This IMO strengthens the case for making priests retinue only because realisticly your only chance to show your men that God is on your side is prior to battle. Once battle is joined priest would find it impossible to make any impact what-so-ever. What are the priests going to do? Tap a soldier on the shoulder mid battle, asking him about God? I don't thinks so.

**SMZ** · 07-16-2005, 11:22

http://www.usachcs.army.mil/history/brief/chapter_1.htm
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chaplain
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/newre...ote=1&p=847817

^as those links show, militant priesthoods, armed holy men, etc have been a part of military action almost as long as humans can remember and the Christian Church by this point in history was no different... there's your "proof", I expect it to receive the same welcome as "logic"...

somebody else already posted giving examples of holy men being slaughtered at various battles, it's evident they were close enough to the conflict to be reached easily

as to what they would do Elmar, it's the same thing any morale boosting prescence does... when the general sends his men forward to fight but remains in the rear this is never beneficial to morale and usually negative... the same with a holy man who promises victory and then scuttles away for safety. If victory is assured, why would he need to leave? Thus a holy man remaining near the army assures them that God(s) are with them and even if mayhaps He would overlook their own poor sinful forms, surely He will protect His holy servant.

EDIT: King of Atlantis - what is the point in babbling about holy hand grenades? Do you think it's equally as absurd for a clergyman to carry a club as a grenade?

Well then I have a short exercise for you. Go look at a picture of the Pope. He STILL carries a club.

**Elmar Bijlsma** · 07-16-2005, 13:11

Originally Posted by SMZ

as to what they would do Elmar, it's the same thing any morale boosting prescence does... when the general sends his men forward to fight but remains in the rear this is never beneficial to morale and usually negative... the same with a holy man who promises victory and then scuttles away for safety. If victory is assured, why would he need to leave? Thus a holy man remaining near the army assures them that God(s) are with them and even if mayhaps He would overlook their own poor sinful forms, surely He will protect His holy servant.

My point being, if you are hacking away at some dude and that dude is hacking away at you, you'd be hard pressed to notice thew second coming of Christ behind you, never mind a clutch of chanting priests. With adrenaline gushing out of your ears and the din of battle you aren't going to be aware of much of anything. Thus having some dudes wander over behind you and then their chanting leading to a nagical morale boost would be a little unrealistic.

That the debateis so heated is (I suspect) because CA was told by the vast majority of posters here, at TWC and .com to not do those units with dubious historical accuracy during RTW and again CA chose not to listen. With CA not listening to their core fans it's hard not to get a little exasperated when you see something else you don't like.

And as a seperate point: I'm a bit tired of the whole balance versus fun/playability debate because saying there is a balance to strike is a weak excuse for not making it both realistic and fun. Look at Combat Mission, it's very realistic but still a good weeze to play.

**conon394** · 07-16-2005, 16:59

SMZ

But your links seem to me to support the ideal of a retinue approach and/or a single priest attached to a general or unit, rather than the cluster of priests units.

**Viking** · 07-16-2005, 18:24

@ King of Atlantis

If you KNOW that priests did not step out on the battlefield nor carrying clubs,
then you MUST have source that you read somewhere so that you can rule it out, otherwise you cannot KNOW, just SPECULATE about it. Now, show me a source about roman priests from that time period that DEFINATELY rule out that this could not exist.