Historical Data for Bi??

[screwtype]

And one other thing I'd like to know - are all twelve of the priests in this unit going to be carrying that big cheesy looking crucifix? Or is it only the leader who gets to carry one?

[Colovion]

And one other thing I'd like to know - are all twelve of the priests in this unit going to be carrying that big cheesy looking crucifix? Or is it only the leader who gets to carry one?

I'm also interested in this. If the Priest units have only a half-dozen or so in their unit, not in ranks and only a single one of them carrying the cross then it wouldn't be as bad as I expected. I also expected them to be depicted like normal units, but I still think that they should just be the standard bearers for Christian factions - if they are attached to an army.

[King of Atlantis]

A know this is probably just another rant, but shouldnt their robes be black or brown, not redstriped.

[gardibolt]

Pope Julius II led troops into combat both before and after he became pope. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

No one seemed to think that was at all unusual. And of course, there are the military religious orders, of which there were over a hundred:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

[Mongoose]

Yes, he led the army. Did he fight? No.

[player1]

Well, players can also choose will they fight with their generals or not.

[gardibolt]

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fil...ays/essay2.htm

[Mongoose]

One bishop...not a group...

Once again, priest's in the following context are fine:

1:retinue(sp?) characters
2:Generals
3:Groups visible beyond the red line
4:Officers

[gardibolt]

Dwight D Eisenhower was never in combat during WWII. But he still carried a gun.

[player1]

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fil...ays/essay2.htm

So that the reference that used AD&D authors for their clerics.
Good work.

[Colovion]

Pope Julius II led troops into combat both before and after he became pope. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

No one seemed to think that was at all unusual. And of course, there are the military religious orders, of which there were over a hundred:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

Those are soldiers who devote their actions (or justify them) by their religion. Priests aren't a military order, they are devout civilians. Knights Templar? Fighters first, devout second. Priests? Civilians; non-combatants - only to fight in desperation.

[player1]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

[magnum]

I have never heard nor read anything that would indicate such a ‘priest brigade’ ever existed, at least not on any large scale that would be considered as a military unit. I see them as being very much in line with the Druids from RTW (which was also a unit that CA showed off before launch.) In both cases, I see the unit as representing not so much actual players on the battle field, but a representation of the influence that both groups wielded both on the common people and on the leaders, in terms of morale and whether or not a particular choice was just and/or wise.

As to their reality/fantasy, I think that would be very hard to show either way with ‘hard facts.’ At best one must make some conjectures as to their place. I have no doubt that throughout modern Christianity that priest have participated in battle. It is also possible that priest participated during the time that BI occurred. The specific prohibition against a priest shedding blood or taking a life did not become official scripture (Cor 11:26) until the end of the BI time frame, a time period where many ‘versions’ of Christianity were in existence and a struggle was going on as to dominance. As such, versions of Christianity that did not prohibit priest participation in shedding blood and killing might have existed.

By the middle ages, while the church had many military orders, the ranks of these orders were not filled with actual priests, but with feverent faithful (well, usually….hopefully….ok, sometimes.) The bottom line, this was most likely due to the fact that there weren’t that many priests. Add on to that the fact of the immense cost and time required to train someone for the priesthood (indoctrination, reading and writing, history as far as the faith is concerned) and the few priests that did exists certainly would not be wasted in something so risky as a battle. So while a few priests here and there might take up the club (or sickle) it is unlikely in my opinion that they did so in any organized military size groups.

[King of Atlantis]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

Thats the whole point! They should be like civilians that might follow an army, but not be a part of it.

[Mongoose]

Well, priests as shown in this unit are hardly civilians if they go near battle lines, have clubs and pray.

Yes, but they take up an army "slot".

One again, the following would be 100% realistic

1:retinue(sp?) characters
2:Generals
3:Groups visible beyond the red line
4:Officers

But not entire units.

[King of Atlantis]

Pope Julius II led troops into combat both before and after he became pope. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

many popes lead armies, the Pope was the most powereful man in europe for a long time, of course he would have an army

No one seemed to think that was at all unusual. And of course, there are the military religious orders, of which there were over a hundred:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm

Knights Templar can never be considered preist..

Also, from a description of the Bayeux Tapestry:

"Famously the Bayeux Tapestry depicting the Norman conquest of England shows Bishop Odo, bishop of Bayeux, with a club in his hand lashing out against the enemy. The Bishop's rationale for his actions was that it wasn't a sharpened weapon"

http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/cupboard/fi...says/essay2.htm

Your right as i have said through this whole debate there was exeptions ot the rule and im sure you can find some other priest that fought, but not as a standard.

[caesar44]

Just an anecdote - when Stalin was doing the usual things he did (maybe killed some priests or smashed churchs) his assistants said to him "but the pope...he is going to be our enemy..." Stalin asked - "how many divisions the man have"...

What a man he was...