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Thread: London bombers british

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default London bombers british

    I'm surprised no one posted about the discovery that the four London bombers were all British citizens, unknown to the Security Service, and with no very apparent links to AQ. (It may have been covered in a more general thread but if it was I missed it)

    What seems to have happened is that four reasonably ordinary people somehow came into contact with something in their environment in britain that, in time, turned them into brainwashed suicide bombers. For something, read someone.

    Now, in the aftermath, we have all been bending over backwards to repeat "only a tiny minority of Muslims..." etc. You could almost hear the news editors thinking "thank god" when they found a muslim woman had been blown up. (If that sounds sick, don't blame me). And of course it is only a tiny minority of muslims etc.

    But a few things seem obvious to me. First, the pathways by which a normal muslim in a normal mosque becomes a radicalised suicide bomber must be quite widely known in the muslim community. They must know who the people are who stand outside mosques advocating more hard line positions, and so on, and from them, step by step, to the people who actually advocate the bombings.

    Second, it may be a tiny minority..etc, but are the majority not only not carrying out bombings but also not tolerating the sort of atmosphere in which vulnerable people can be lead away down the path of terrorism? I am not suggesting they are at all comparable in moral blameworthyness, but an Imam preaching firey sermons on the evils of western society and the need for muslims to avoid the sins of the west is laying the groundwork for the terrorist recruiters, even if he himself would never support such an action.

    Third, I have heard some muslims complain that they have indeed told the police that extremists are at work in their mosques, and the police have done nothing. The reason seems to be that all this valuing diversity stuff (admirable in itself) has blinded the police to the need to help muslims stand up for their own communities. I have long maintained that the biggest racists are to be found on the left (just as the trade unions were one of the major obstacles to equal rights for women) and this sort of jolly "oh well its just the muslims way to be advocating violence etc never mind we must value their diversity" attitude is a prime example. Now we reap what they sow, and of course its just the same people who caused the problem who are putting themselves forwards today to "lead" us all after the bombings.

    (Note to foreign posters. As an example, the Mayor of London, foremost both in condemning the bombings and in spinning the attacks as being attacks on us all, (when they are plainly attacks on western society and not on "us all" at all) has until recently been proudly inviting muslim leaders who support suicide bombings in Israel to speak at city hall. IMHO he thereby fosters the very climate that suicide terrorism is legitimate that produced these attacks, and no one seems to care at all at his present volte face. in fact he is more popular than ever.)
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    That sounds like bad news

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin

    (Note to foreign posters. As an example, the Mayor of London, foremost both in condemning the bombings and in spinning the attacks as being attacks on us all, (when they are plainly attacks on western society and not on "us all" at all) has until recently been proudly inviting muslim leaders who support suicide bombings in Israel to speak at city hall. IMHO he thereby fosters the very climate that suicide terrorism is legitimate that produced these attacks, and no one seems to care at all at his present volte face. in fact he is more popular than ever.)
    Maybe the Mayor of London funded the attacks......

    Who knows...Everyone is dubious in his own manner.....
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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
    That sounds like bad news
    No, it isn't.

    I think Assassin shows one way to fight the terror. The muslims in our sicieties were left alone for too long (at least here in Germany). As long as there were no problems nobody cared what was going on in their communities. That has to be changed. We have to involve. We have to work with those who are shocked about the terror. We have to fight the criminal preachers together. Why should that not be possible.

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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    I'm surprised no one posted about the discovery that the four London bombers were all British citizens, unknown to the Security Service, and with no very apparent links to AQ.
    Yeah, I was surprised too but did not post myself as quite frankly, I don't know how to react. Reading the profiles of the bombers, they seem quiet, seemingly decent people. One was a 30 year old teacher of Special Needs children with a pregnant wife.

    I am not sure about the "no very apparent links to AQ". Some did recently go to Pakistan (which I don't distinguish much from Afghanistan in terms of the presence of AQ). IIRC, one of OBLs top people was arrested in Pakistan with a tube map and told the US that AQ wanted to repeat Madrid in London. The explosives were the same as those used by the shoebomber Richard Reid. An Egyptian biochemistry PhD who helped one of the terrorists rent a house is being sought by police. I don't think these 4 dead terrorists had the ability to do this alone and suspect the operation was inspired and made possible by people with AQ links.

    I may post again on some of your other points, but as I say, I still don't really know how to react to this revelation.

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    I did not post because I wasn't at all surprised.

    I also didn't see how the fact could provide much of a topic for discussion other than everyone saying that they're surprised/unsurprised.

    Of all the immigrant communities in Britain, I feel the one that has been the least sucessfully integrated into society is the Islamic one. Therefore, it is perhaps easier for this community to spawn those who see nothing wrong in killing their fellow countrymen in mass acts of violence like last Thursdays bombings, because they feel no bind or bond with them.
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    Grand Warder of the Woods Member TonyJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    What surprises me the most - or horrifies me if I'm honest - is that they look like little kids.

    There's a picture in the uk press today of one of the bombers leaving Luton station. He has a massive rucksack on his back which we obviously now know contained 30lb of explosives.

    For all the world he looks like a lost tourist - it truly is frightening.
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    Pining for the glory days... Member lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    You know what gets me the most about these bombers?

    Firstly, the sheer arrogance of their opinions. To claim that they understand the whims of their god and religion so completely as to decide that bombing is a legitimate course of action, justified by their god and/or religion...

    Secondly, Im sure every one of these bombers (being 'British' citizens) appreciated the fact that this nation supports laws such as equal opportunites in work/religion/sexual disposition/age/race etc etc and would have rightly kicked up a huge fuss if denied a job on the grounds of race/religion/whatever.

    Yet, whilst availing themselves of these rights, they murder in the name of a religion and treat their religion as superior..

    Sheer hypocricy.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    You guys talk about 'integrating them into your communities', yet by all accounts, they were fully integrated. Well, as integrated as they themselves wanted to be.

    There's a link on Drudgereport that I'll post when I get to work (my home computer has some problem with .html coding and doesnt' let me do links or smileys) about a baggage handler at Houston International Airport. By night, he's a rapper, who raps about how he's arranging a repeat of September 11th this year, about how this is a muslim country and all the Christians are just begging to be killed, and so forth.

    They fired the guy, and he had the nerve to act shocked. "Hey man, it's just my art. I'm just trying to express how I feel. Until I actually do something, you can't treat me any differently".

    Fact is, there's very little we can do to 'reach out' to these people beyond what we've done. This is where the muslim community at large either 1) has to stand up and say it's unacceptable and police from within or 2) admit that they don't really have a problem with these attitudes.
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    That came as no shock at all.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
    An Egyptian biochemistry PhD who helped one of the terrorists rent a house is being sought by police.
    It seems that this guy has been arrested today in Cairo - hopefully this will lead to more information about the AQ network in the UK.

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Well, DC, there's muslims and muslims of course. Plenty are well integrated, and plenty aren't.

    I do think an important issue is if muslims have been reporting this stuff to the police and the police have been doing nothing (I remember this being said about the Finsbury park mosque, famously the subject of take overs by hard liners).

    In a sense the hardline muslims are the same sort of problem as Militant was in the labour party: a small bunch of nutters who squeeze out the ordinary majority by being so bloody nasty.

    In case my first post is misunderstood, whilst I do think that there are some hard questions that it is right to ask of the Muslim community (well, of the Imams, mainly), it is obviously hugely counterproductive to demonise them or blame them for the attacks. But it does need to be said we can't stop future attacks without their help, (and we have a right to expect that help from them as fellow citizens, just as I would have a duty to grass up my next door neighbour if he was a member of Combat 18) and muslim preachers need to exercise the same restraint as any other preacher must.

    And finally there are bits of the story i just don't understand, like the family allowing one of them to go off to pakistan to study at a religious school there. Uh-uh, call me Mr Stereotype but if that was my son I'd be worried... or the one who has an 18 month old child. Imagine, having an 18 month old child, and thinking God commands you to blow yourself up?

    With my JAG hat on I actually feel sorry for the bombers. Its the puppet masters not the puppets who must be stopped.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    I'm not talking about demonizing or blaming anyone. But the muslim community has been saying for some time "we want to help stop this". Now is not the time for talk on their part, it's time for some action out of them.

    If what you say is true, that they have been going to police and getting ignored, well... heads should roll for that. In today's day and age, having a muslim come to the police station and say "there's this guy at my mosque, and he's talking crazy...." to just be ignored by the police? That's gross dereliction of duty in my book.
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    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    you talk stuff like that it a sydney mosque and travel suspicoulsy to Mid East, then theres a goodly chance you'll spend a coupla years in gitmo'. Keeps the b*stards in line.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    It seems the Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain broadly agrees with me which is comforting...

    Muslim chief in plea to leaders
    15 July 2005
    The Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain has visited community leaders in Leeds saying he wanted to take "concrete steps" to ensure an atrocity like the London bombings never happened again.
    Sir Iqbal Sacranie told a meeting of Islamic and community group leaders in the city: "We are all responsible for it in a way because we have been talking about the fact there are elements within the community who perhaps are carrying out the rhetoric and message of hate and very little has been done.

    The community across the country condemns such activities but beyond that, what have we been doing?"
    Sir Iqbal said he and other members of the council were in Leeds to listen rather than make lengthy statements about what has to happen next.
    He said he had already spoken to a number of groups in the city adding: "They are all in a state of shock, as we all are."
    Sir Iqbal listened as representatives of a range of Muslim and other groups gave their views at the Baab-ul-Ilm Centre, in Shadwell.
    He told the meeting to expect a statement from Islamic scholars from across Britain at the London Central Mosque which was "so powerful and so strong" it would leave no-one in any doubt about the Muslim communities' attitudes to atrocities such as the London bombings.
    He said: "That statement is going to re-define the position about what Islam has to say about acts of atrocity, acts of murder and criminality."
    Asked if he supported the call for a public inquiry on how the bombings happened he said it was too early to say and the police should be left to get on with their investigations at this time.
    Sir Iqbal later left the centre to meet groups in the Beeston area of the city and will later pray at the Leeds Grand Mosque before leaving for the meeting of scholars in London.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    I thought I had missed the thread on this, since it is rather old news now. I wasn't really surprised by them being "integrated" British muslims. I am only slightly surprised at the profiles--and the ages are exactly what I expected. It is usually young idiots carrying out such acts. One has to wonder if the bombers didn't give far more clues as to their beliefs than their friends and relatives say. The good news is that it will make muslims more introspective, and more attuned to detecting warning signs from their own community.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    lmfao.. It's wrong for Imams to give firey sermons? We'd better crack down hard on the southern baptists then, not to mention the Catholics.
    I dont mean to be rude but you are out of your mind. Talk about moral equivalance.

    Equating firey sermons to suicide bombing is not only hypocritical, but pure conjecture.
    Equating fiery Christain sermons on the evils of sin is hardly comparably to the Imans preaching hate and DEATH to the unbeliever.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    lmfao.. It's wrong for Imams to give firey sermons? We'd better crack down hard on the southern baptists then, not to mention the Catholics. Equating firey sermons to suicide bombing is not only hypocritical, but pure conjecture.
    My wife was fairly sheltered from Baptists and Evangelicals/Pentacostals growing up. Some years ago she was shocked to hear a Baptist minister in a sermon at a local church condemning "Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics and other heathens." We aren't Catholic...but it was pretty amusing. I had to explain to her that quite a few denominations are convinced that theirs is the only group going to heaven--having had the experience of regularly attending several such denominations growing up.

    And for Gawain, sorry, but there are U.S. Christian ministers also teaching rather hate filled sermons as well. They usually don't go out and call for things to be blown up and people killed...but a few do.

    I assume Cube was kidding with the generalization.
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Equating fiery Christain sermons on the evils of sin is hardly comparably to the Imans preaching hate and DEATH to the unbeliever.
    It is identical, and you are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. Just because Christian sermons lead to people dieing through lack of research and removal of funding for vital operations - such as abortions - in the US and especially in Africa and the third world, it doesn't mean death is not spread by the 'word of God' in both religions.

    Or would you be using some moral relativism there Gawain and treating them different as they are applying to different people? Muslims attack your fellow patriotic Americans, Christians tend to attack the unwashed masses, especially in far off countries.


    EA - I agree with your point about needing to get the muslim community involved themselves in sorting the situation, I too think that is one of the only ways we will solve the problem. But there is a problem, many of the muslims I know - through work and college - are very laid back in their manor, they are concerned and horrified by the attacks, but it is not in them or part of their way to actively round up and sort these people out. That is the attitude I have picked up talking to people I know anyway. They will condemn as honestly as you and I, and mean it, they themselves, like the majority of muslims, would never attack this country, however when it comes to confronting those who use their holy book in a different way, I always seem to find hesitancy. It only ever goes as far as 'they are not real muslims', but no actions seems to be forthcoming.

    That though is probably to be expected, many communities would have problems facing inwards like that, I am sure. But we must try and solve the problem.

    By the way, I hate this whole 'they were turned by radical preachers!' lark, shouted by the media, for it is bollocks. The suicide bombers knew exactly what they were doing and why, they were not brain washed and sent out like a mindless horde, they actively listened to these preachers and choose to carry out the deed. They are responsible for their actions far more than those who 'converted' them.

    Now there might be real reasons why they turned to these radical preachers, but that issue is separate, I have every respect for pointing the finger at why they would turn to them, but not in trying to dodge their responsibility for doing the attacks.
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    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    It is identical, and you are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. Just because Christian sermons lead to people dieing through lack of research and removal of funding for vital operations - such as abortions - in the US and especially in Africa and the third world, it doesn't mean death is not spread by the 'word of God' in both religions.

    Or would you be using some moral relativism there Gawain and treating them different as they are applying to different people? Muslims attack your fellow patriotic Americans, Christians tend to attack the unwashed masses, especially in far off countries.

    So abortion is now "vital"? I'm no pro-lifer, but to claim that abortion is "vital", then to use the issue as a slam against Christianity is ridiculous. As for the issue of hampering research, I have to ask what research are you talking about? There is little research ongoing in ANY Muslim country other than military. The West, with it's Judeo-Christian credo leads in funding for research in any category I can imagine; space, pharmaceuticals, engineering, etc., etc.

    Muslims also attack your fellow citizens Jag... not just "patriotic Americans".

    I think you seriously need to rethink your position
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    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    lmfao.. It's wrong for Imams to give firey sermons? We'd better crack down hard on the southern baptists then, not to mention the Catholics. Equating firey sermons to suicide bombing is not only hypocritical, but pure conjecture.
    Yes it is wrong. People like Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri, through hateful rhetoric, are quite capable of recruiting young people to commit horrible crimes. I sincerely believe that corrupt Imams play a very crucial role in brainwashing young Muslims, but hey, at least they’re not Southern Baptists. It may be a hypothesis on my behalf, but a very likely one, I think.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Frankly, I wasn’t surprised, because, sorry to insist on this, but the bombers in France few years ago were French. Born in France, French education, some very successful businessmen, integrated in the society and, or course, minority. I even don’t want to imagine 10% of the French or English Muslim minorities blowing-up themselves in our undergrounds or buses!!! Some were even French converted to Islam in Bosnia…
    That is why when one of my colleagues went on the immigration issue and all others things against bloody foreigners I had to remind him this fact.

    However, I have to agree with you on much of the points you made.
    The Muslim so-called community was too nice and understanding for terrorism. They were explaining that yeah, perhaps the Taliban went too far, but you know it is their culture and well, it wasn’t so bad. They stopped the opium.
    And, you know, the oppression against minorities is very bad except when these minorities are their women and daughter, because it is their culture etc.
    No Imam I heard about clearly opposed to terrorism, suicide bombers, slaughters of entire villages and families before. That anti-Semitism wasn’t so much a problem, the perpetual critic on western way of life (just the fact to go to marry in Pakistan or in Algeria is a symptom) was quiet normal.
    I heard recently on a radio a guy defending the strict application of the Charia, with the stoning to death for adultery and all… “Because it is our culture…”

    Now, hoops, too late, so let’s pretend we were always against. Doesn’t work like that, does it?
    So, yes, the Muslims have now to put their acts together and start to clean under the carpet. But it will more difficult than 10 years ago…
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    It is identical, and you are kidding yourself if you think it isn't. Just because Christian sermons lead to people dieing through lack of research and removal of funding for vital operations - such as abortions - in the US and especially in Africa and the third world, it doesn't mean death is not spread by the 'word of God' in both religions.

    Or would you be using some moral relativism there Gawain and treating them different as they are applying to different people? Muslims attack your fellow patriotic Americans, Christians tend to attack the unwashed masses, especially in far off countries.
    That, I think, is the stupidest,most ignorant statement ever to be issued forth on the Org.

    What research is not undertaken because of Christianity? Care to provide any examples, or will you just keep prattling on, irregardless of relevance or facts?

    Since when is abortion 'vital' to living? (It certainly doesn't help the baby live!)

    Christians do not attack the 'unwashed masses' they go and help the poor, unlike coffee house socialists like yourself who don't do crap for anybody. Mother Teresa spent decades in the slums of Calcutta, and you have the audacity to say that Chrisitians are 'attacking' people.

    JAG, either say something remotely suggesting you have an operating brain or shut the hell up.

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Err, well, for what its worth I would say that a minister who preaches an intemporate sermon saying that doctors who provide abortions breach the first commandment and it serves them right if the adage of an eye for an eye is applied to them is indeed more or less as bad as the Imams in my original observation, in that both foster the enviroment in which killing is seem as something God might command even if they don't actually say so.

    Incidentally I didn't "equate" firey sermons to suicide bombing, I do wish people would sometimes read what we say round here. I was quite careful to say that such sermons lay the groundwork for terrorist recruitment, no more.

    The fact is that even the muslim community will readily admit that in the UK one propblem we have is most of the Imams are from abroad and really have no idea how life works here. The people who suffer most from this are muslims themselves really, since, once you accept the unfortunate premise that they want to be guided by some fraud who claims he has a hotline to god, its obviously bad for them that when they turnh up with a western "problem" ("My daughter was talking to a white boy what should I do" ) they get an even more inappropriate answer than the Southern Bapist would give ("send her to pakistan and marry her to her first cousin against her will")

    I will only derail the thread still further if I comment on religion generally so I won't.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  26. #26
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    OK bombing

    /take two
    robotica erotica

  27. #27
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    That, I think, is the stupidest,most ignorant statement ever to be issued forth on the Org.

    What research is not undertaken because of Christianity? Care to provide any examples, or will you just keep prattling on, irregardless of relevance or facts?

    Since when is abortion 'vital' to living? (It certainly doesn't help the baby live!)

    Christians do not attack the 'unwashed masses' they go and help the poor, unlike coffee house socialists like yourself who don't do crap for anybody. Mother Teresa spent decades in the slums of Calcutta, and you have the audacity to say that Chrisitians are 'attacking' people.

    JAG, either say something remotely suggesting you have an operating brain or shut the hell up.

    Crazed Rabbit
    You really don't know your own religion - and the extremists within it - very well. Try a google search, worth a try.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  28. #28
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    You really don't know your own religion - and the extremists within it - very well. Try a google search, worth a try.
    Find me a Christain church that preaches killing Mulims or calls for the end of Islamic rule in the middle east through war. This moral equivalncwe thing by thos on the left is truly disturbing. Then they wonder why us conservatives all scored as realists in that test. In fact Jags remark on it was Pffft I believe. You can substaniate just about any point of view you like if you google the right words.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  29. #29
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    You really don't know your own religion - and the extremists within it - very well. Try a google search, worth a try.
    I don't know my own religion?! I suppose you were a Catholic before you were an atheist. What's that? You weren't and the only things you know about Christianity you gleaned from Socialist Weekly? So very surprising.

    And are you going to even attempt to answer my questions, or do you concede that your arguement was pure BS? No, you don't even try to defend your outrageous claims, but try and pass it off as though, since there may be someone, somewhere, who is an extremist, that justifies you saying "Christians tend to attack the unwashed masses, especially in far off countries."

    How about, instead of spouting BS and then changing the topic whenever someone calls you on it, you either1) try to actually defend your points (which would be futile) or 2) Don't say such stupid things in the first place.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  30. #30
    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: London bombers british

    If people were more courteous this forum would be a whole lot better.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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