The Left's False Narrative

[Pindar]

Well, duh, it can traced because we have written records. And yet there is a huge gap in there where democracy was absent. It did not return until the shackles of the aristocracy and Church were thrown off over two millenia later. Might I remind you that Athen's democracy destoryed itself? The oligarchs won. And so VDH transferred attention to Rome, which was a republic. Carthage was also a sort of elected republic as memory serves... The Framers of the US Constitution actually feared Athen's form of govt. from what I've read.

Hurin challenged the idea of democracy's origins. Your "duh" is misplaced.


Yes the Athenian experiment failed. The idea of democracy did not disappear however. It survived and revived with the return of Classical knowledge. Though typically rejected as akin to mobocracy the notion persisted. Regardless, the ultimate reformation of democratic norm occurred in the West.

More importantly we lack information to know how many other societies operated. It is a huge leap to assume that it did not exist elsewhere...considering that there were other elected forms of govt. existing at the same time that we do know of.

This is an appeal to ignorance. The historical record is based on evidence. The evidence of democracy in the West is clear. If there is no evidence of a democratic superstructure with other civilizations one cannot conclude it existed.

Recent scientific method is oversold. There were scientific communities well before the 17th Century in various fields. People tested various facets of the world arround them, proposed explanations, and recorded the information. Agriculture and animal husbandry have been with us for many thousands of years. You would be hard pressed to claim there was not scientific method involved throughout. The development of siege technology in Assyria and again later in Syracuse are further examples of science in action.

Science is a specific theoretical posture. It is composed of clear principles: physical data, inductive logic, notions of symmetry, verification etc. It can be traced to two specific individuals: Descartes and Bacon. This does not mean people did not learn or study prior to the 17th Century. It does mean that the formal system we call science was not a distinct method.

So you know for a fact that no other nations/groups had a system that protected individual rights before that time? There is no way of even knowing. Talk about drawing conclusions from incomplete sampling...

This is also an appeal to ignorance.

You sound like VDH... I've spent time working in Asia and can appreciate differences of several Asian societies, and I reject VDH's drivel.

Singapore's model is interesting. I'm not sure that I fully understand it but I can recognize some things about it from my time there. China seems to be emulating it as a way to catch up. One might even argue that Singapore's approach is closer to a capitalism/market based govt than any Western govt. which tend to be more bound more by the contraints of individual liberty and property rights (I prefer our way, but theirs seems to work for them so it is worth trying to understand why.)

Singapore was a British Colony. Its distinctive status and infrastructure are a reflection of this history. Capitalism is a Western construct. Lee's rhetoric and the reality are not necessarily the same.

[Red Harvest]

This is an appeal to ignorance.

No, it is rejection of theoretical speculation (itself based on ignorance) that is being used as bigoted cheerleading by Hanson. I fail to see any value in his Western Way of War thesis. There is no deeper understanding coming from it. In fact, I felt his treatment of certain aspects was superficial (and in cases factually incorrect.) It read more like trying to spin the history to fit the thesis. That is one reason I find his current essay so ironic.

[Pindar]

RedHarvest: So you know for a fact that no other nations/groups had a system that protected individual rights before that time? There is no way of even knowing. Talk about drawing conclusions from incomplete sampling...

Me: This is an appeal to ignorance.

No, it is rejection of theoretical speculation (itself based on ignorance) that is being used as bigoted cheerleading by Hanson. I fail to see any value in his Western Way of War thesis. There is no deeper understanding coming from it. In fact, I felt his treatment of certain aspects was superficial (and in cases factually incorrect.) It read more like trying to spin the history to fit the thesis. That is one reason I find his current essay so ironic.

The rise of democracy is not theoretical speculation. There is a well established textual tradition that dates from the 5th Century B.C. dealing with the subject. The same cannot be said of other Civilizations.

As far as VDH's theory of the "Western Way of War" that book is beyond the scope of this thread. The focus of this thread is the left/right dichotomy regarding the war on terror.

[Red Harvest]

As far as VDH's theory of the "Western Way of War" that book is beyond the scope of this thread. The focus of this thread is the left/right dichotomy regarding the war on terror.

No, Hanson's credibility and his bias in historical writing are quite relevant to the thread. His villification of those who disagree with how things have been conducted is further evidence of his failings as a writer. How can one evaluate history objectively, when revealing an utter lack of objectivity in the present?

I was for invading Iraq and finishing the job that his father left undone, yet I cannot objectively look at what Dubya has done and feel that he has managed the situation with any competence. He ignored good advice about what the campaign would require (and those weren't leftists either.) And the WMD aspect really makes my blood boil. His strategic blunders have been large, and his integrity on the matter is at best highly questionable.

Look at Hanson's claim that "America has suffered in Iraq .006 percent of the combat dead it lost in World War II." World war II had 292,131 combat deaths (vs. 404,399 total.) In Iraq we presently have had 1352 combat deaths (DoD numbers excluding contractors.). That is 0.46%, so Hanson was only off by a factor of 76 or so. There are some problems with the simplification he is attempting too, as the survival rate is much higher now than it was in WWII. So far in Iraq there have been 13,438 wounded with about half being in the "return to duty" category.

Perhaps Hanson should try his hand at fiction?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Another splendid post!

Why dont you just marry him and get it over with We get it you two think alike.

So? Countless Americans are at risk. Innocent Americans who have done nothing wrong. Far beyond the point where it is acceptable. So what if you're not at risk?

Thhe fact that your not at risk is your reason to support unconstitutional drug laws. I say countess innocent americans are far more at risk from terrorism than drugs. The main reason theres a drug problem is the government created it. Your being nothing but a hypocrite here.

Terrorists are not exactly rampant within America,

I say they are. Would you like to wait for the next 911 before you do something about them? Have some consistancy.

[Kanamori]

Before I could discuss his writing seriously, I would need to know what the West is more specifically; it seems so broad he can pick and choose as he likes. I would like to see a more specific definition of leftist as a opposed to liberal, and rightist opposed to conservative.

[Pindar]

Before I could discuss his writing seriously, I would need to know what the West is more specifically; it seems so broad he can pick and choose as he likes. I would like to see a more specific definition of leftist as a opposed to liberal, and rightist opposed to conservative.

My guess:

I think he defines the West as the Civilizational children of the Greeks with perhaps a more specific orientation on the Western European strand: those lands dominated by Catholicism and Protestantism.

I think he would define Leftist as those views that are inspired by socialism and the right would be views inspired by market driven approaches.

[Pindar]

No, Hanson's credibility and his bias in historical writing are quite relevant to the thread.

You have a very different approach than I. I don't care what a person thinks about other things any more than I do the color of their shoes. I take any argument or essay presented on its own merits.