Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
Does that really disprove Pindar's point because the West has often failed to actually "live" up to the values/concepts/standards that were mentioned?

Not really - a human failing mabybe, an inablity to accomplish the standards that one would like to accomplish definetly. However even given the wrongs and the failures - one can not say the Western World did not accomplish such things.
I'd like to answer that part separately.

It's obvious that at least we enjoy the benefit of science, democracy, and civil liberties for ourselves.We did accomplish that. We did err quite a lot on the way even in our own countries (WWI horrors, WWII crime against humanity). We did nothing for others.

Our shortcomings, multiple betrayals of those values, our failings as you name them shall at least stop us from lecturing others about it.

I find it a bit "rich" (French expression, not sure it translates well), to tell others what they shall do when we had the power to do it earlier, and screwed up for them.
I mean, if as a French, I was to lecture Algeria for its lack of democracy, chances are Algerians would get a bit upset: we owned the country, were big mouth about democracy and La Grandeur de la République, never gave it to them, and repressed them when they ask for higher representation, then later independance.
Or picture a Brit lecturing an American about taxation and representation

Can you claim superiority for something you're not doing?

Louis,