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Thread: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

  1. #31
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by whyidie
    "The weekly news and public affairs series "Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered" aired from June 18, 2004 to June 17, 2005."

    Wow, it made it almost a year.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Wow it was on for a whole year and that only started last year and its canceld already. Who the hell is Tucker Carlson anyway? I guess that makes them fair and balanced

    Again they have no bussiness putting this show on either with taxpayer money.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Man you guys are an absolute hoot! I'm trying to figure out why we need a constitutional change to allow funding of a public network... I've found the documentaries, educational programs, and news programs to be money well spent.

    Fox news, what a joke. I enjoyed watching some of it, mainly for live coverage of certain events during the Iraq War, but their "Fair & Balanced" stuff is farcical, like "compassionate conservative." Fox was sending most of the gung ho propaganda out unfiltered by critical thinking--I lost track of how many times we found WMD's and "got Saddam." Journalism? Hardly, especially watching make-up boy go on about his "G-Block," what ever the hell that was. Fox is entertainment, not journalism. Presently it is mainly entertainment for the Right. The opposite of Fox is not PBS...Al Jazeera perhaps, but not PBS.

    But discussing this with the Right is like trying to deprogram a cultist. PBS is biased because they don't see everything the GOP's way...fine logic you have there. It gets back to that "righteous" aspect again.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    But discussing this with the Right is like trying to deprogram a cultist. PBS is biased because they don't see everything the GOP's way...fine logic you have there. It gets back to that "righteous" aspect again.
    I've said it many times- who cares if its biased or not? It could be the most balanced stuff on TV and I would still be opposed to government funding for it- it could be the most right leaning channel on TV and Id still be against government funding.

    Of course, right leaning media is actually profitable and doesnt need government funding- so that will never happen.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Here's a CATO article making the case to defund PBS/NPR. Here's a few tidbits.

    LOL, you quoted CATO??? Yeah, that's fair and balanced. I enjoy reading some of their stuff, I dig through their stats and bases at times looking for info, but ignore their biased reading of them as I find it at odds with logic.

    What does Ann Coulter have to say? Let's ask Pat, too...
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Man you guys are an absolute hoot! I'm trying to figure out why we need a constitutional change to allow funding of a public network...
    Because theres nothing in the constitution giving the government the power to fund propaganda.

    I've found the documentaries, educational programs, and news programs to be money well spent.
    Of course as most of them push your agenda.

    Fox news, what a joke.
    I thought you liked to get both sides? Fox is certainly far more fair and balanced than PBS or NPR. Again if Fox were paid for by your tax dollars you would be screaming bloody hell to take it off the air. Yet you claim to be a moderate
    But discussing this with the Left is like trying to deprogram a cultist. FOX is biased because they don't see everything the Democrats way...fine logic you have there. It gets back to that "righteous" aspect again.
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    Member Member whyidie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    "The weekly news and public affairs series "Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered" aired from June 18, 2004 to June 17, 2005."

    Wow, it made it almost a year.
    It sucked. Don't blame PBS, they gave him an ample supply of bowties.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    "The weekly news and public affairs series "Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered" aired from June 18, 2004 to June 17, 2005."

    Wow, it made it almost a year.
    And nobody's head exploded...guess we can file away another Right wing myth.
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    Member Member whyidie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Wow it was on for a whole year and that only started last year and its canceld already. Who the hell is Tucker Carlson anyway? I guess that makes them fair and balanced

    Again they have no bussiness putting this show on either with taxpayer money.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_Carlson

    Tucker Carlson (born May 16, 1969 in San Francisco, California) is a libertarian-leaning conservative pundit best known as a former co-host for CNN's Crossfire, representing "the right." Distinguished by his moppish hair and colorful bow ties, Carlson is generally considered one of the most recognizable conservative personalities in American television.

    Carlson currently hosts The Situation with Tucker Carlson on cable news network MSNBC, and is a contributor to Esquire magazine and the conservative magazine, The Weekly Standard. He also previously hosted PBS's Tucker Carlson: Unfiltered from 2004 to 2005........Tucker Carlson is the son of Richard W. Carlson, who was president and CEO of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting from 1992 to 1997. His stepmother is Patricia Carlson, heir to the Swanson frozen-food fortune.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    And nobody's head exploded...guess we can file away another Right wing myth.
    No one said there were no right wing people on PBS. But the percentage is laughable as is your position. Look Look theres a conservative. Where? Right between those 200 liberals. As a myth buster your an utter failure. Now theres a show that should be on PBS.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    LOL, you quoted CATO??? Yeah, that's fair and balanced.
    Hmmm, I dont remember billing that as fair and balance... but whatever.

    However, they are far from Republican shills and regularly criticize the administration- and are just plain right on this issue. What argument can actually endorse government run media? We already have government funded TV and radio- why not newspapers too?
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    Member Member whyidie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    No one said there were no right wing people on PBS. But the percentage is laughable as is your position. Look Look theres a conservative. Where? Right between those 200 liberals. As a myth buster your an utter failure. Now theres a show that should be on PBS.
    ----------------

    Their heads would explode if there was one show that was actually right-wing on there. They'd scream bias until their lungs burst.

    Crazed Rabbit
    I think you should leave this one to Pindar.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Because theres nothing in the constitution giving the government the power to fund propaganda.
    Nor is there anything in there about a White House Christmas tree...yet I don't think we need a constitutional amendment to authorize that. You will have one hell of a time proving that PBS is propaganda. Anything that isn't 100% Right Wing Approved is tagged, "propaganda."

    I thought you liked to get both sides? Fox is certainly far more fair and balanced than PBS or NPR.
    No, it isn't. The Right wing has no interest in balanced reporting. They hate PBS and NPR because more than one side will be presented. It has to do with the intolerant nature of the Right.

    Again if Fox were paid for by your tax dollars you would be screaming bloody hell to take it off the air.
    If Fox were funded the same way as PBS, I doubt it would last on the air very long, and it certainly couldn't qualify as a non-profit. Fox has an anti-intellectual appeal to it--more of a blue collar network. I enjoy some of the shows, but their news programs don't do much to stimulate my gray matter.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    What Red doesnt seem to realise is that if FOX was funded in the same manner as PBS us conservatives would still hold the same position on the matter. Close them both down. He is showing himself to be a liberal partisan here yet claims to be a moderate.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    What argument can actually endorse government run media?
    That's funny, I never knew PBS or NPR were "government run."
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    That's funny, I never knew PBS or NPR were "government run."
    You didnt know that? Maybe that's part of the problem....

    It's run by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, who's board members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. You knew that right?
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    What Red doesnt seem to realise is that if FOX was funded in the same manner as PBS us conservatives would still hold the same position on the matter. Close them both down. He is showing himself to be a liberal partisan here yet claims to be a moderate.
    You are painting yourself farther into the far Right corner there. You posed the question assuming you knew how I would respond. You were wrong.

    And once again, we have the far Right reclassifying everyone not in their corner as being "liberals." Sigh. Wake me up when something new happens. Don't you guys ever get tired of saying that? It is so dated...you need something new, something with some pizazz.

    So now you are saying that if you can't pin PBS with the bias rap, you would simply oppose any Federal funding on principle. Perhaps, but that isn't your motivation, and we all know it.

    There is nothing constitutional to this.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    You didnt know that? Maybe that's part of the problem....

    It's run by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, who's board members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. You knew that right?
    No, I actually didn't. I hadn't actually looked into the governance aspect. Makes the claims of bias even more ludicrous though...
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    red you are a liberal claiming claiming to be a moderate.

    we should not have government funded news stations. If fox was like pbs the right would still not like it. And left would hate it also but the left isnt complaining now because it promotes their agenda
    Formerly ceasar010

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    So now you are saying that if you can't pin PBS with the bias rap, you would simply oppose any Federal funding on principle. Perhaps, but that isn't your motivation, and we all know it.
    Ive been saying it for months- defund it, bias or no. Its not all political news either, they can defund Sesame Street too, let it sink or swim on its own- without taxpayer funding.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    If Fox were funded the same way as PBS, I doubt it would last on the air very long, and it certainly couldn't qualify as a non-profit. Fox has an anti-intellectual appeal to it--more of a blue collar network. I enjoy some of the shows, but their news programs don't do much to stimulate my gray matter.
    Replace anti-intellectual with anti-elitist and maybe you'll have a point.

    That is a typical coffee shop liberal statement though. Do you often cast aspertions on your blue collar underlings? How dare people who dont get paid as much as you challenge your intellect. You know whats best for them, right?

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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Could you imagine the screams from the left if Rush Limbaugh had a show like Moyers on PBS
    Now that's something I would like to see! Have Rush Limbaugh as the secret new co-anchor for Bill Moyers. Bill Moyers face when Rush Limbaugh walked in would be priceless.

    There is a definite liberal bias in the news media, but I think Bill Moyers made a few good points here.

    the conventional rules of Beltway journalism. Those rules divide the world into democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives and allow journalists to pretend they have done their job if, instead of reporting the truth behind the news, they merely give each side an opportunity to spin the news.

    Too often reporters are just mouthpieces for sound bites and are not doing a credible job of reporting what is behind the story. Any idiot can listen to what Bill Clinton or George Bush says on the podium. This is proven by the number of idiots doing exactly that. We do not have any need for a reporter to repeat back to us what they just said. A good cameraman would be enough for that. Journalism to be of any value must be more than that. Too often what is behind a story is left in silence. Stories about the military for example are frequently poorly done from a basic lack of knowledge on the part of journalists, and from a lack of desire to learn or find any sources that do know more.

    news is what people want to keep hidden, and everything else is publicity.

    This is true and seems to be poorly understood by modern day journalists. Sound bites, talking points, news conferences, and political think tank publications are just part of the machine and the journalist must get beyond them or be irrelevant.

    I realized that investigative journalism could not be a collaboration between the journalist and the subject. Objectivity was not satisfied by two opposing people offering competing opinions, leaving the viewer to split the difference. I came to believe that objective journalism means describing the object being reported on, including the little fibs and fantasies, as well as the big lie of people in power.

    This was seen with the claims of Bill Clinton, and George Bush in their wars. The ultimate justification of their wars aside the media did a shabby job of reporting the substance of their claims and never seemed to actually find the truth behind what we now know to have been somewhat shaky in both cases. Any news reporter could have gone to Yugoslavia or Kosovo to report the truth. Any news reporter could have gone to Niger to find out the facts in the case.

    Why this failure to do what anyone with a plane ticket and a MasterCard could have done?
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Replace anti-intellectual with anti-elitist and maybe you'll have a point.
    Wrong. Elitist better describes the current monarchy, I mean administration. What I find funny is that the Right is heavily represented by those running business, the true elitists. On average they also have religious conservative views, so that fits with the working class base.

    That is a typical coffee shop liberal statement though. Do you often cast aspertions on your blue collar underlings? How dare people who dont get paid as much as you challenge your intellect. You know whats best for them, right?
    Spoken like a true fascist. See, isn't this name calling fun? No, I don't think you are fascist, I'm making a point.

    I wasn't casting aspersions, just pointing out differences in backgrounds and what each *on average* favors. Unlike you, I don't consider any one who works for me an "underling." Your statement reminds me of a conservative manager I didn't worked for (but who thought everyone worked for him), who liked pointing out to others that he was their "superior."

    My background is more blue collar, pulling myself up by the bootstraps beside many who had money and connections, but who lacked drive and insight. I get along better with the operators than with the elitist management. You see, I well understand that position or education do not equate to intelligence. Unfortunately, I found that many of my own conservative coworkers with nice salaries did NOT share my view in regards. They would actually say that they felt they were somehow more important because of their position/education/intelligence, and they really looked down on the low end wage earners. I've known plenty of dense well educated persons that reached their place based on their heritage and the good ole boy network. And I've done my share to promote and reward intelligent innovative shift workers, especially ones who "challenged my intellect" with something I had not thought of.

    Education is not elitist. Historically, fascists and extremists typically target the educated, because they represent the biggest threat to totalitarian regimes. One of the first targets of totalitarianism is the media--they recognize it must be controlled. Yes, the parallels do concern me.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Red I suggest you take a good look in the mirror as it seems you are all you hate.

    One of the first targets of totalitarianism is the media--they recognize it must be controlled.
    And the libs did a great job of it for forty years. Unfortunatly for them along came talk radio, the internet and cable tv. No more monoply. People are more informed now and your breed is dying along with the main stream media. No one trusts them anymore other than liberals who are what 18% of Americans ?
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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Post Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Pindar, et al, who are saying there should be no publicly-funded broadcasting-- I am not saying that you are wrong, I am saying that it is an irrelevant argument. The PBS exists, and it has for a while, and will for a while more. The issue being discussed here is the decision to sideline Bill Moyers, and should rest strictly on the merits of that choice.

    To bring up the philosophical point of there BEING no PBS, is either one of two things--

    (1) Selfish. Bringing in a pet political cause and tooting its horn where it has no place. Distracting from real conversation.

    (2) Cowardly. A convenient back-up position that supposedly absolves the debater from actually attempting to prove anything at all. A farsical attempt to claim the "high-ground" of "neutrality". "Well, even if it said everything we wanted, we'd oppose it." Irrelevant. Stick to the reality at hand, debate the merits.

    ..

    Now, if you say his strong statements against right-wing figures, even taken in balance with his frequent invitation of opposing, pundits to talk on his show, are an unacceptable use of public funds, then we can agree to disagree.

    There are not only TWO sides to every issue, giving a left-wing hack and a right-wing hack the chance to yell at eachother does not create balance. In fact, there are not TWO sides to ANY issue, but only ONE. The side of TRUTH. Everyone sees this truth a little differently, but it is the reporting of this truth according to individual concience which defines good journalism.

    Or at least that's ONE of the definers of good journalism. The other is quality research and solid factual backup for all statements and conclusions. And no one could ever fault Bill Moyers on THAT.

    ..

    If a man's conscience and documented research leads him to criticize one political camp over another, then he is an honest man, and his is a valuable journalistic voice.

    But if you see the world in terms of right and left, and believe that criticizing the one makes you the other, then in terms of your world view you are CORRECT-- that honest journalism certainly is a poor use of public money.

    DA

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Sesame street is the bomb.

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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
    There are not only TWO sides to every issue, giving a left-wing hack and a right-wing hack the chance to yell at eachother does not create balance. In fact, there are not TWO sides to ANY issue, but only ONE. The side of TRUTH. Everyone sees this truth a little differently, but it is the reporting of this truth according to individual concience which defines good journalism.
    DA
    Have you thought about going on Crusade? You would make a good one.

    There are usually more more than two sides to an issue. Often, three, four, or more. The first point is that what you want to see done may not be what someone else wants done. So how is there only one true way in that situation?

    The second point is the value you place on what you want done and the value someone else places on the same thing. The cost the two are willing to pay for it will vary based on their perceptions.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  28. #58
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Myself
    Haven't seen any violations of free speech by the current administration. (well that is not completely true- it seem the court did attempt to compeal a journalist to give up his source - but was that the adminstration or the courts?). Of course in administration sponsered press confrences you get the information that the government wish to give you. However again show me where the adminstration is deny freedom of speech by arresting or taking sanctions against opposing viewpoints. Because that is exactly what the term silencing opposing viewpoints by the government means to me. Private news sources have the ability to report the news that they want to. While I don't watch PBS much anymore - no one can say that Bill Moyers reported the news without adding his own view point. His little piece above is evidence that he voices his politics views. However Bill Moyer was not paid for by an indepent source - he was paid by a system dependent upon tax payer money. I find his arguement slightly hypocritical.
    I see everyone is decided to ignore what is stated in Moyer's little speech / editorial. Everyone seems to want to blame the adminstration for slopply and lazy journalists not reporting the new - ie the truth. But instead of looking at his profession - Mr. Moyer choses to blame the right and the adminstration more then anything.

    Like I said in the above quote - Moyer is own worst enemy and is showing himself to by a hypocrit in his arguement - especially given that his funding primarily comes from PBS - a federally funded network


    Quote Originally Posted by Myself

    And Bill Moyer ruined that image for PBS. But that only my opinion. I prefer to read the news from multiple sources - not from the television.
    Notice the bolded type - it means opinion. I don't care for Mr. Moyer's editorials nor his hypocrisy in this mattr.



    Quote Originally Posted by Myself
    Actually no - the only true option for the individual who want to keep himself informed is to use mulitple sources - which is what I believe is one of the main philisophies that is alluded to in my sig quote from Thomas Jefferson.
    Some of you need to get your information from more then one source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
    If a man's conscience and documented research leads him to criticize one political camp over another, then he is an honest man, and his is a valuable journalistic voice.
    However when one blames the administration for the lazy journalistic efforts coming from most journalists - that individual is being a hypocrit. The profession of journalism means you research the story and report the truth. Just because the subject of the story does not give you information hand over foot - does not make it an attempt to silence the media. The journalist needs to get off his fat lazy butt and become a journalist again and get into the trenches to report the story - ie the truth - in spite of any minor obstacles the subject of the story might put in place.

    Mr Moyer wants his pie and his cake - and he wants to eat them both at the same time without truely having to work for it. (or at least that is the opinion I gather from his article that Ichi posted.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  29. #59
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by ichi
    No one has addressed the point that the current admin is diligently working on silencing any oppsing viewpoints. This is certainly not good for a free independent review.

    Current corporate interests are so powerful and have shown they are more concerned with image and damage control than the public good, that it may be important to have a non-commercial voice in the media.

    But Pindar's point is well taken, this may not be an appropriate use of guv power, and as this last episode has shown, the idea of a neutral voice, while certainly desirable, is vulnerable to propagandization.

    The question really is, is corporate propaganda the only option?

    ichi
    I didn't address your specific point because I am not particularly concerned about the liberal bent of PBS or NPR. I have no real problem with more as opposed to less ideas in the common square. I understand various Administration advocates who argue any government sponsored broadcasting should be neutral or proportionally representative, but I do think there is a disingenuous element to the rhetoric that boils down to power politics.

    I think, in general both PBS and NPR try to be rigorous in their approach and that alone is noteworthy. Regardless of political persuasion a sober (albeit left leaning) approach should give room for thought and that is never a bad thing.

    What is a bad thing, in my opinion, is government monies funneled to any such exercise.

    "The question really is, is corporate propaganda the only option?"

    Cable baby.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  30. #60
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Moyers and the rectification of PBS

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
    Pindar, et al, who are saying there should be no publicly-funded broadcasting-- I am not saying that you are wrong, I am saying that it is an irrelevant argument. The PBS exists, and it has for a while, and will for a while more. The issue being discussed here is the decision to sideline Bill Moyers, and should rest strictly on the merits of that choice.

    To bring up the philosophical point of there BEING no PBS, is either one of two things--

    (1) Selfish. Bringing in a pet political cause and tooting its horn where it has no place. Distracting from real conversation.

    (2) Cowardly. A convenient back-up position that supposedly absolves the debater from actually attempting to prove anything at all. A farsical attempt to claim the "high-ground" of "neutrality". "Well, even if it said everything we wanted, we'd oppose it." Irrelevant. Stick to the reality at hand, debate the merits.
    An attack on the notion of publicly funded broadcasts is a more fundamental issue. If government sponsorship is illegitimate then that issue trumps any discussion of content. To argue a necessarily prior position is irrelevant is to put the cart before the horse.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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