MTW or VI - Which Is Really The Best Medieval Multiplayer Game?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It was also the first battle Buu played at any tourney heh I remember your team was Alymere, Yvain and Lional,

Yup Lional was the only vet there.. Yvain and Aly had just won their tags. If you can go nack and check the record of our first team. Again I dont think they ever lost. Also SA stayed with pretty much the same team all the way throug. People in our clan started to complain that they werent being given a chance while others such as myslef wanted to win a tourny for once instead of finishing second like we did in every CWC but 1. But we gave in as that how RTK play the game.

[L'Impresario]

*this is getting slight off-topic but anyway*
The tourney escalated into play-offs which in turn ended into 3 final games. Didnt you use the first team for the finals? That would be poor leadership from the King (sows the seeds of dissent heh);)

EDIT: Although on a second thought I'd let the new people play after having trained them to exhaustion; they might 've delivered a powerful surprise as the replays' dl section had 100s of hits

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Didnt you use the first team for the finals? That would be poor leadership from the King (sows the seeds of dissent heh);)

In a word NO. We have a new King since then in case you havent noticed. It wasnt his fault though. There had been a conflict in RTK after I started recruiting the Pages. There was a split between those who wanted to win and those who want all to particiapte. The way of the RTK has always been fun and fairness over winning. We are the anithisis of the SA. Honor over glory.

[Tomisama]

Aye, the talk of strategy and tactical teamwork warms the wee cockles of me heart

But words about the lack of spear and pike power to provide the rock-paper-scissors balance to the game, makes me sad again.

I’m thinking that a simple modification could fix this problem, and really make a “new game” out of good old MTW/VI. Could even call it Super VI, or SVI for short.

The trick to “successfully” accomplishing this, “has to” bow to the wisdom that there be only “one” revision. That it would have to be a self extracting no-brainer, with a desktop switch-back to standard. And that it would only fix this “one” problem. Nothing more to learn than how to use spears again.

Anything “more”, or “less”, will probably be doomed to the mod grave yard, before it even has a chance to be accepted by the majority of players.

And if it isn’t plug-and-play, with a single, but significantly powerful, and easy to learn change, it will probably never fly, and is not worth doing in the first place.

Anyone up for creating this SVI mod? Do we have any interested in beta testing? I would do my best to promote it with a CWC SVI Competition, and Org front page “Super” announcement with some cool picture and stuff.

What do you say

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But words about the lack of spear and pike power to provide the rock-paper-scissors balance to the game, makes me sad again.

I have always maintained that the only thing lacking has been in this area. Just adding more morale to spear units would seem a step in the right direction to me. You can count me in if you need testors. I have so many ideas on how easily MTW could be improved its a shame someone doesnt by the rights and release my improved version.

I love talking about the history and charcters of MTW and VI. So many rememberable people clans and battles.

One thing for sure from looking at this poll is that there is little doubt that VI is the superior game. Those of you who only play MTW please take note.

[L'Impresario]

There are two schools on how to improve the game:
a) the radical one and most effective, but hard to make and spread as people usually don't want to change something that changes vastly how they use their CMAA "Übermenschen", and
b) the "patch-way", changing less, prone to have small mistakes all over and in theend achieve opposite results.

"A" entails eliminating what causes the general balance problem, not only in spears but among all units: valour and any other upgrades. The Community mod is a good example but it has changes that deviate very much from the standard game apart from the statistical ones.
"B" means changing prices and maybe a minimum of mrl values (or in the extreme attack, defence, speed). Hard to finetune as those ms v3 (a lower quality troop) could still be better than cmaav2 (a high quality one) whatever you do , just one case of the dozens I can think of. One of my clanmates Ein did try to follow this approach but it was during the end of the VI era with people hanging around even more resistant to new idea. As long as we tested it, it was going in the right direction, with only simple changes, like prices and a slight speed upgrade for fast cav, so that the pav fights become somewhat more interesting (an alan charge made with even 1 or 2 points of higher speed surey did look more destructive heh).

Anyway, clans nowdays might be willing to endorse such a mod (even though they few, as is the general VI population) and I'd be happy to do my part, as there aren't much better things to do in VI, but that should be after summer:)

[Puzz3D]

But words about the lack of spear and pike power to provide the rock-paper-scissors balance to the game, makes me sad again.

I’m thinking that a simple modification could fix this problem, and really make a “new game” out of good old MTW/VI.

You can, to a large degree, correct five problems by playing with the rule of equal valor on all units. This would avoid making a mod. The rock, paper, scissors is there in the valor 0 game, but morale is too low and ranged units too expensive in most player's opinion. When you raise the money above 5000 florins, the swords and ranged units get the most upgrades because swords are relatively cheap and range units get a discount on upgrades. This is what upsets the RPS by allowing swords to beat cav, and turn ranged units into melee units.

If you play with all units at valor 1, all units will get +2 morale which is the morale level at which the game was designed to be played. The problem with low morale in MTW was brought on by the switch from purchasing units at honor 2 in STW to valor 0 in MTW. That's a 4 point difference in morale, and while a hidden +2 morale was put back in VI it is still 2 points less than what it should be.

The discount on ranged unit upgrades, introduced in MTW v1.1, was an attempt to compensate for their weakness in multiplayer. Playing at valor 1 makes ranged units relatively cheaper, but doesn't go overboard allowing ranged units to become highly effective melee units as happens in normal 10k and higher games.

Swords will be better balanced vs cavalry because they won't get more upgrading than the cav knights usually get as they do in 10k and higher games. A good charge is essential for a v1 cav knight to beat a v1 cmaa, but they can do it.

Spears will beat cav and they will not be operating in an environment where high powered swords decimate them so quickly. The sword will still beat a spear with it's hidden +1 attack vs spears, but not as fast. The better spears are suitable against the better cav. The weaker spears are suitable for the weaker cav types, but it will still be costly for a cav knight to take on a weaker spear due to the cost difference. You could argue that spears in VI should have been put back to the original costs they had in MTW v1.0.

Finally, you limit the number of elite units that get used by keeping the money level to 8500 florins or slightly higher per player. This effect breaks down at 10k. Fewer elite units gives lesser units a chance to be used. We played many test games using this system back in MTW v1.1, and there were a greater variety of units being used in the battles. We pretty well eliminated the next step up in morale as offering better gameplay because the morale was too high and undermined the effectiveness of flanking.

Using this equal valor system might have an adverse affect on the balance of some factions. As I recall, the Turks aren't quite as good. So, someone who likes using the Turks won't like playing this way. You will run into this same kind of issue with a mod, and you will still have the upgrade system destroying the unit balance the mod is trying to create.

A problem with mods is that there no way to make them easy to install since European and USA versions of the game use different game folders and using the registry key to find the folder isn't reliable either.

[L'Impresario]

Installing mods like the "La Reconquista" or the Comm Mod was a piece of cake so far, and only one click away from late period.

Anyway V1 for all unit will create significant problems with ck, lancers, goths and the like being able to create chains routs in secs if encountered in groups large than 2. I also don't think strictly anti-cav units like halberdiers will be able to withstand a single charge with mrl2 from a v1 ck. Ofcourse a solution is lower florin levels but then some expensive units like jhi or almughavars for example won't be worth it.Needless to say with a little testing it can be checked.

[Puzz3D]

Installing mods like the "La Reconquista" or the Comm Mod was a piece of cake so far, and only one click away from late period.

Ask CBR how much time we spent helping people install mods for MTW. For some people it's a piece of cake, but for others it can take hours to get a mod installed.

Anyway V1 for all unit will create significant problems with ck, lancers, goths and the like being able to create chains routs in secs if encountered in groups large than 2.

First of all, you would keep the money low so you won't have large groups of elite units, and second, you will have to use spears to stop them. That's the whole point. Swords will no longer work against cav. A ck is going to cost 1147 florins, and if you are playing at 8500 you won't see many of them. Lancers and Goths are even more expensive. Those units could be quite effective, but you will have to be good with them.

I also don't think strictly anti-cav units like halberdiers will be able to withstand a single charge with mrl2 from a v1 ck. Ofcourse a solution is lower florin levels but then some expensive units like jhi or almughavars for example won't be worth it. Needless to say with a little testing it can be checked.

Well, that's true about basic halberdiers, but you don't need them and why should they be able to stop an elite cav unit anyway? Halberdiers do not break the cav charge the way spears do. You want to bring them in after the cav charge has been stopped by someting else. They would be useful against lesser cav and you'll be seeing lesser cav. The expense of the jhi is why the Turks take a hit since they don't have a good alternative anti-cav unit as I recall, and you can no longer pump the combo units to be top melee infantry. We played battles with this valor 1 rule, and they were good. As I recall, the Turk problem was the main objection to it.

I can play Samurai Wars where everyone has the same unit choice, and there are only 14 unit types. The battles are very good. If some of the 100 unit types in MTW/VI are made non-useful by playing at equal valor, I don't think it matters. Look at how many non-useful units there already are in the normal MTW/VI game. The majority of the units are not useful. With the equal valor rule you increase the number of useful units. If Turks are no longer competitive, then don't use them. Faction balance is a whole other can of worms. You have to weigh these things against making a new mod and getting everyone to install it, and the fact that the release of BI is coming up fast. The release of the RTW v1.2 patch killed Samurai Wars and killed a CWC tournament that was using Samurai Wars.

[L'Impresario]

First of all, you would keep the money low so you won't have large groups of elite units, and second, you will have to use spears to stop them. That's the whole point

That's somewhat problematic as the assortment of spear units can't exactly match the power of a ckv1. The strongest spears are OFS (italian infantry) and Saracens which costwise aren't exactly the best choice, as 680 florins and mrl 4 don't ensure that they can hold that good , for they need lots of time to start inflicting serious casualties to heavy cav, who won't rout very easily with mrl10.

Well, that's true about basic halberdiers, but you don't need them and why should they be able to stop an elite cav unit anyway?

Yes I agree but you don't have a way of making them very useful this way, and there are not many units who can could be used to finish up a good cav in reasonable time, without spending florins at the elite cav's level.
I don't think Turks are in that bad condition tho. They just can't have many choices in offense, but the mrl penalties that heavy fire by their hybrids can cause to mrl4-6 inf are not negligible. Still not comparable cav or inf, but this was the case in vanilla anyway, you 'll have to win by playing differently than euros.
Eitherway as I said, the v1 rule at say 8k could be way better than the current 10k-15k game variety-wise, even if after a while some units will be discarded from the game .

[Puzz3D]

That's somewhat problematic as the assortment of spear units can't exactly match the power of a ckv1. The strongest spears are OFS (italian infantry) and Saracens which costwise aren't exactly the best choice, as 680 florins and mrl 4 don't ensure that they can hold that good , for they need lots of time to start inflicting serious casualties to heavy cav, who won't rout very easily with mrl10.

You have to maintain the integrity of the spear battleline, and you have to accept that the cavalry can pull back and reform for another charge at a different spot. OFS won't rout if you keep their flanks covered, and they will take very few losses from a CK. CK is a 5/5 and OFS something like a 3/11 vs cav with the rank bonuses included, and the CK's charge bonus is negated. The OFS is twice as good as the CK in combat power. Spears are implemented as a defensive unit, and their low rate of casualties helps keep their morale up. Also, there are no high powered swords around which can rout spears in seconds. Even chiv seargents are effective, but harder to use because they have less morale. After the cav charge is stopped by a spear, you could possible bring in a halbedier to get some quick kills on the cav unit or maybe hit the heavy cav from the flank with a light cav unit. I played many games at 5000 florins with valor 0 OFS, and they work without routing. CBR used to use chiv seargents in those 5k games.

Players are going to try to break the spear line with cav charges at first, but once you stop it several times they will have to switch to a different tactic. Stopping sword attacks on a spear line is going to requite the use of additional units, and you might have to reposition the spears to cover the flanks if you send in your cav to take on the swords since you won't have any viable units to protect your flanks with cav and spears both commited to the line.

Yes I agree but you don't have a way of making them very useful this way, and there are not many units who can could be used to finish up a good cav in reasonable time, without spending florins at the elite cav's level.

That's right. You won't be knocking out cav knights quickly, and they are going to make multiple charges on you which you have to parry if you are playing defensively. They won't break you if you get the right units matched up against them and you maintain a good formation of units which provide morale support to the unit that's fighting. That CK is worth 1147 florins, and even if it kills a whole OFS worth 680 florins and in the process is itself decimated, you've gained 467 florins.

Eitherway as I said, the v1 rule at say 8k could be way better than the current 10k-15k game variety-wise, even if after a while some units will be discarded from the game .

Well I think it offeres a significant improvement to the gameplay with a very simple rule, and you don't need a mod to use it. We could do some test battles to demontrate how well it works.

[L'Impresario]

I didn't say tho that a good player will charge any spears, t's just that you could have a static line that the player with the v1 CK might opt to bypass it and strike at another point. The mobility of a CK is worth double the cost of an OFS.The ck can ofcourse fail at striking at the weak link (non-spears that is) and this just shows how defenders can get a really big advantage if the attacker is forced to launch an offensive while using cav as the main force (actually using any force). Generaly tho, with OFS and CK, the cav user has the option not to give battle most of the time.

[CBR]

I have used Feudal Sergeants to stop a heavy cavalry charge. Using valor 1 on all units can be done as a simple rule and would improve balance but would still have some probs with the lower morale units.


CBR

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ask CBR how much time we spent helping people install mods for MTW. For some people it's a piece of cake, but for others it can take hours to get a mod installed.

Or days and even weeks. It took me over a month and lots of help from CBR to install the STW mod. Im such a noob.

[Tomisama]

So, if I am getting the jist of all of the above.

The most effective balancer, is also the simplest to implement.

In-game rules of mandatory v1 for all units, and florin set to 8k per player.

Am I understanding correctly?

If so, would this formula change for different eras

[L'Impresario]

Well, I see it this way after some quick calculations and armies I made.
8k for early is too much, for high it's good I guess, maybe some 100s florins over the needed amount, and for late too few.
Heh that's how it appears to me right now, shame that I won't actually have the chance to test 'em soon.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You know its a real shane the Re Conquista mod never really caught on. It was like a totaly new game and the Celtis put a hell of a lot of work into it. I loved how there were so many new units. That though seemed to be the problem as it was hard to figure out what was best. But then thats also what makes it so interesting. You never knew what you were going to face. To bad we cant get everyone to download it and have a touney there. It would sure even things up as pretty much everyone would be a noob. I like CBRs mod also. Its much more balanced.

[L'Impresario]

I think "La Reconquista" was the most successful mod in VI/MTW history in terms of games played. I remember browsing through my logfiles a year ago and seeing that I had over 150 games with it, and I wasn't particularly looking for them. This may have lasted for a month or two, then the gradual collapse of the "VI community" couldn't help any alternative playing style , and not many players can agree on one , apart from the one they think they're good at.
I sometimes like mods with many new units as they give me the illusion that there can be a closer approximation of real historical forces that took part in the battles of a given period, and also offer more options, but in the end if they remain unbalanced the gameplay won't improve at all.
PS. I 'm getting annoyed by people who create infantry (or even cav) units with 20 or less men for their mods grrrr :)

[CBR]

I remember making a spreadsheet with all Reconquista units to find the best units, only took a few hours But it was without doubt a lot of work to make the mod and most likely the mod that had most people playing it.

I guess its a question of design philosophy but since I started looking at stats and modding just after MTW 1.1 came out in early November 2002 I quickly saw that balance could only be done if upgrades were removed.

There is not much point in having say 30 different sword units if they can all be upgraded to have same power for same cost, and if a few are better the rest are just there to clutter up your army selection screen.

Its hell for those who dont have the interest in studying stats and upgrades and it gives number crunchers the advantage until all others starts using the same armies.

My own mods like MPwars series (Italian Wars, Crusader Wars and Eastern Wars) and The Community Mod were all done with the idea of using no upgrades and Samurai Wars is based on the same principle. I found that when people accepted the no upgrade bit the army selection and gameplay was a lot more intuitive and varied than MTW/VI.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

My own mods like MPwars series (Italian Wars, Crusader Wars and Eastern Wars) and The Community Mod were all done with the idea of using no upgrades and Samurai Wars is based on the same principle. I found that when people accepted the no upgrade bit the army selection and gameplay was a lot more intuitive and varied than MTW/VI.

I actually made a version of Samurai Wars which allowed upgrades, and it was play tested quite a bit with various MP'ers. In the end, this version was discarded in favor of the one which didn't use upgrades because the gameplay was more balanced and intuitive without the upgrades. The final straw for the upgrade version of Samurai Wars was when Mitch was able to purchase an army stacked with upgraded guns which cavalry couldn't counter. Sound familiar? There is no need to study unit stats in Samurai Wars because it adheres to a simple rock, paper scissors system. The RPS is maintained throught a battle in MTW/VI's engine because the battlefield upgrades were removed from MP.

Despite a relatively limited unit selection which is the same for everyone and the fact that you can see exactly what you are up against by looking at the opponet's units on the battlefield, the battles are not at all easy to play. You can only win by outmaneuving your opponent and you need a variety of unit types. Armies stacked with one or two particular unit types will not do it for you because there are effective counterunits, and you are likely to be facing enough of those counterunits to make things very difficult for your stacked army because taking a balanced army is not a disadvantage the way it is in MTW/VI. If a balanced army with 4 yari spears and other assorted units can defeat an all cav army, you aren't going to see many all cav armies. If you try a cav/sword army in Samurai Wars, a cav/sword/spear army will beat you because either the cav or the swords will be better in the cav/sword/spear army since spears are cheaper than swords. All you have to do is avoid engaging the swords with your spears, and that's an issue of maneuver. The cav/sword/spear army will have enough cav and swords to engage all the swords in the cav/sword army.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Bye the way I played a few 8k v1 max games with the Hunters last night.Spears still dont seem that good but are certainly better. It seems similar to Sam wars.Ill see if I can get a few more games and people to try it tonight.

[Tomisama]

All units valor 1, with no upgrades?

Early 5k, High 7k, Late 9k?

What about Viking era florin?

I will be looking to do some testing this weekend also


P.S. Something in my head keeps telling me that range, cavalry, swords, and spears, should have different valors. I’m not exactly sure what they should be, maybe:

Range v0
Cavalry v1
Swords v2
Spears v3

Don’t know where that is coming from (maybe just need some sleep )

[L'Impresario]

Not a bad idea, but how exactly are you going to have enough spears and pikes v3, when they cost a fortune;)

[Puzz3D]

I think you need 8500 florins for high era a little less for early and a little more for late.

[L'Impresario]

In early,you can get 4 units of the best quality in cav,swords and spears with less than 7000. At more th.an 7k Russians become really, really powerful.
In high at 8k you have to make some tough choices regarding the elite units you 'll take, in other words, you have to select which part of your army you want to boost.Doesn't look bad, here's a token english force: KnTmpl, 3 x FK, 1 Hob, 2 x OFS, 2 x CS, 2 x FMAA, 1 CMAA, 1 LB, 3 x XBs. Total Florins spent: 7965.
For late I tried to make an army with 9k, where the pure melee-inf mrl averages 6 and the cav one about 7.5. More support missile units than other eras tho. An example: GothK, 2 x CK, 2 x MountS, 2 x CMAA, 1 FMAA, 2 x SwPik, 1 Pikm, 2 x PavArb, 1 Arb, 2 x Arqs. Total Florins spent : 8970. Ofocurse there are about 6-7 first class units here.

Anyway, hadn't had the chance to try v1 games yet.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Range v0
Cavalry v1
Swords v2
Spears v3

What of pole axes, militia sarge,billmen, halbds, pike and the like 3?

[Tomisama]

What of pole axes, militia sarge,billmen, halbds, pike and the like 3?

They would come under spears. "Spears" is a general cover-all for anti cavalry units.

I would like to explore that more, but for starters thought I'd run this up for your review. The valor thing could be changed after testing if necessary (as any part of the following).

CWC Special - Sunday Knights - Back To The Future Tournament

MTW/VI v1.2, 4v4, Clan Teams, Valor One, High Era, 34k (8500 per player), No Artillery, Custom Large Maps, Lush, Clear Weather, No Specified Attacker Or Defender, One Hour Time Limit, Admin Supervised Round Robin. The Team with the most wins of the day, takes the Championship.

Meet one Sunday afternoon, and get-r-done!

Sound like fun

[Puzz3D]

Tomi,

You don't need to change valor on unit types like that. v1 orderfoot and v1 chiv sergeants easily defeat v1 chiv knights inflicting a casualty rate of about 2:1. Feudal sergeants (200 florins) have trouble beating a chiv knight (675 florins), but it's still good against less expensive cav. Regular spearmen are probably only good against the weakest cav, but all these spear types will beat cav costing approximately twice as much. Saracen spearmen have some trouble with chiv knights, but they are fine in desert since chiv knights will fatigue fast in the desert. Also, if you make maa swords v2, then v1 cav knights won't beat them, and v2 swords are going to have trouble beating the v3 spears.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The best fix is CBRs com mod. My problem is I want to make more units usable. So far everything seems to make less units usable. I think 1v max with upgrades allowed at what ever florin level we determine . You could limit upgrades on swords if you like to even things out a bit. Also if you use the 0 arc etc rule where would lbs and many other dual units fit in. V1 max is easiest to implement.

[L'Impresario]

As I 've said many times, V1 max (even without upgrades) isn't a solution cause you end up getting the same armies like in normal 10-15k VI, with only a reduction in morale for the infantry units.
All will go for v0 heavy cav so they can buy lots of it, and money will be left when the cav sales are over. Then if wpn and arm upgrades are allowed, certainly they 'll cause severe unbalance: why take cmaa v1 when you can take a fmaav1 wpn1 which is equal in stats and costs less? Just for the +2 mrl? And how will you know how many upgrades that fmaa will have? This will be a ridiculous guessing game as the only differentiation in the usage of the usual sword units will be their wpn/arm upgrades. And as spears have generally higher prices they are quite more expensive to upgrade.
It's quite obvious that we'll see the same 5-6 units being used , with the exception of some new easily upgradeable missile units, prolly the newest exploit in fashion.
Please do tell which units will be usable in v1 max with wpn/arm upgrades allowed that aren't usable in v1 only.