MTW or VI - Which Is Really The Best Medieval Multiplayer Game?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

why take cmaa v1 when you can take a fmaav1 wpn1 which is equal in stats and costs less? Just for the +2 mrl? And how will you know how many upgrades that fmaa will have?

You could limit upgrades on swords if you like to even things out a bit.

I also believe theres a logfile where the upgradess are shown. Otherwise how will you know if any units have upgrades? Allowing upgrades allows more different units to be used. V1 max and lower florins makes sure none are really over powering .

[L'Impresario]

I guess you didn't understand my example. Even if you take limited upgrades for swords they'll still be cheaper as the difference between a v1 wpn1 sword and a v1 wpn2 spear is significant , esp. in lower florin games. I'll give you another one(and there are more than a few out there) regarding the unsuitability of your proposal in making more units usable: Why take cs when you can take ofs? And you can handle a mrl4 unit decently why not take ms instead of fk?

I also believe theres a logfile where the upgradess are shown

That's not my point. I was refering to the in-game movement which are determined largely by what units you face. So people would be very amused and start to happily giggle when they see that the "noob" enemy threw a byz inf at the standard v1 to be slaughtered by their their v1 wpn3 arm2 woodsman..what fun

I can presume you haven't really understood the reason why it's an obligatory v1 and not v2 wpn1 and free arm upgrades or whatever else.
The concept is not to use the upgrades which allow weak units to eventually become better than elite ones. Also to make players choose their armies based on value and not mathematical calculations regarding which unit gets the better upgrades at the lowest price. This can help new players get better armies as "intuitive" is the magic word and goal here. You get what you pay for. And what you pay for is dependant on the florin level. At certain florin levels you can get a good mrl average of fighting units (that being 5-6) and still be forced to select a lot lesser units to augment the "good" ones.
Gawd, this has been so talked to death ...

[Tomisama]

After a brief study (please correct me if I am wrong):

It seems that what “valor one across the board” does, is brings all units above moral 0, except some peasant units (forgive me if someone else already said that). This keeps everyone on the field long enough to perform their specialty, without changing their original character too much.

Adding upgrades after that fact, only enhances specific features, but does not change that base morale. And upgrades are controlled by low florin levels, requiring trade-offs with total units deployed to make any significant alterations.

I know, bla-bla-bla. Just wanted you to know that I do my homework


My side trip through variable valors for different troop types. Spawned from a “feeling” that such modification would somehow balance things. What I found was, that it was true! But I had it a bit wrong, should have been something like this.

Cavalry v0
Sword v3
Spear v3
Range v4

The balance that this brings, at least for a simple English CK, Pav, FMAA, Billman army, was a common morale 8 for all. Interesting, but probably not useable in any way.

Again just doing my homework.


“To upgrade or not to upgrade, that is the question. Whether is nobler in the mind to suffer inherent florin spending imbalances, or to allow arms variations on the valor one theme?”

Will have to give both a try and see what kind of problems are created.

Going to be testing v1, High at 8500 this afternoon. Please join in a game or two, and we’ll see if this puppy barks

[Gawain of Orkeny]

“To upgrade or not to upgrade, that is the question. Whether is nobler in the mind to suffer inherent florin spending imbalances, or to allow arms variations on the valor one theme?”

Well asllowing upgrades is certainly earier to police. Also at 8k I could only afford to upgrade 2 archers and thats because i didnt take pavs. The low florins eliminates many upgrades.

[Puzz3D]

The problem with allowing upgrades is that ranged units and sword units pay less for their upgrades. That means those are the unit types that will get upgraded which reduces the effectiveness of cavalry on those unit types. The RPS system is undermined by the upgrades. For example, a cmaa with 1w1a equals a chiv knight in combat power, is a lot less expensive than the chiv knight and only slightly more expensive than an orderfoot spear.

The cost system in MTW is messed up. Spears should be the least expensive unit, swords the middle priced unit and cavalry the most expensive unit. It's not like that in MTW because swords are the least expensive unit. For example, cmaa (250), orderfoot (400) and chiv knight (675).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The problem with allowing upgrades is that ranged units and sword units pay less for their upgrades. That means those are the unit types that will get upgraded which reduces the effectiveness of cavalry on those unit types.

Again at the florin levels were using theres very little money left for upgrades. The sword units seem much less awsome. We had some real good practice games last night at 8.5k v1 max being the only rules.

[Puzz3D]

Again at the florin levels were using theres very little money left for upgrades. The sword units seem much less awsome. We had some real good practice games last night at 8.5k v1 max being the only rules.

I played a lot of 5k games in MTW/VI, and it eventually became apparent that sword based armies would beat sword/spear armies. The sword based army gets better cav. It's still an issue even with a v1 no upgrades rule, and is caused by the relatively low price of swords. I guess a mod is really the only way to fix this tendency in the game.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I played a lot of 5k games in MTW/VI, and it eventually became apparent that sword based armies would beat sword/spear armies. The sword based army gets better cav. It's still an issue even with a v1 no upgrades rule, and is caused by the relatively low price of swords. I guess a mod is really the only way to fix this tendency in the game.

Yup. Spears are still not useful no matter what we do it seems.

You hit the nail on the head with this one

The cost system in MTW is messed up. Spears should be the least expensive unit, swords the middle priced unit and cavalry the most expensive unit. It's not like that in MTW because swords are the least expensive unit. For example, cmaa (250), orderfoot (400) and chiv knight (675).

Just switch the cost of spears and swords.

[Tomisama]

Just switch the cost of spears and swords.

Even if you change the cost, that will not change their lack of effectiveness on the field.

The Order Foot Solders require an upgrade to defeat CK. Either weapon 1 or armor 1 will be required to do their job, even though there are 100 of them. Now it should not be this way, but you have to start from where you are.

And while I am talking about “shoulds”. I know we call it rock-paper-scissors, but there are a four elements in my consideration of the matter. Considering units of the same size, my “should” says range defeats swords, swords defeat spears, spears defeat cavalry, cavalry defeats range. That at least was the formula at one time, I thought? But I am getting old

I am off work today, so am going ahead and start serious work on this Valor One Tourney. There is no reason we can’t light the fire, even though we don’t have all the sticks in it yet. The valor one part is the only part so far that is in stone, so will use that in advertising.

Please note that by all of the indications, that this will be a very large affair. Much larger than you would initially think. I am expecting upwards to 16 Clans to participate (everyone I talk to is in love with the idea). And with that many, looking at the standard CWC format (yes they “are” there, some just hiding in Rome ).

The one day event round robin was a cool idea, but in setting the valor one standard requires a semi starting-over for most folks (new armys and practice with them). In order to make it worth the effort, there has to be more than one day of battles.

[CBR]

Order foot can easily defeat CK. The main problem is the too low morale on lots of units. Thats why I used a compressed morale range in the Community mod of 5-9 instead of the 0-8 in the default game.

There are several ways of doing a RPS system and just to complicate things in MTW/VI we have polearms and spears that both are good v cavalry but in different ways


CBR

[Tomisama]

In tests this morning, the Knights only lost when stationary. They always won when charging. Maybe I did something wrong? It wasn’t totally scientific, just some quick custom battles. You’re the cavalry expert

Yes, complexities on complexity with all the variations of ant-cav. And there’s armor piercing and not, to be considered. What a mess

But let’s get together and have some fun with this MTW/VI revitalization idea. The game is no more or less perfect than it was through the years of the CWC Medieval tournaments. And the Valor One convention will eliminate outrageous morale pump-ups, and give us a new game in many ways. What do you say

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I say we may have to make a 7 cav max rule

[Tomisama]

Oh oh! cav to powerful in comparison to the balance of the unit types, right. Spamming has migrated from Rome. And all of the same arguments for limit numbers will follow also, right?

I’m sorry, but I would rather play it straight up (selectable valor), than try to deal with this again.

Let’s just play the game, as we always have. It was good enough before. It is better than Rome. So let’s just do it!

Let’s just have some fun

[CBR]

Well I just had 10 battles with CK in 4 ranks charging OF and another 10 with CK in 1 1/2 ranks so I could overlap the flanks. The first 10 was a clear win to the OF with losses anywhere between 4 and 16. The other 10 was 50/50.

Of course if you really want a good statistic you want 100+ tests, and custom battles have valor gain during battle that might make them different compared to a MP battle.

But all in all it shows that CK cant expect to win against OF except if they can overlap or the OF routs because of morale penalties (seen that happen lots of times because of friendlies routing or outnumber penalty etc) or if they can make a rear attack of course.

Not sure how you did the tests but I just charged the CK right into the OF with time speeded up. And used a small flat custom map I have.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

Oh oh! cav to powerful in comparison to the balance of the unit types, right. Spamming has migrated from Rome. And all of the same arguments for limit numbers will follow also, right?

This is why the equal v1 on all is different from v1 max. At v1 max, you've just translated the 10k unit selection to lower morale. Using v1 on all and no upgrades the elite cav is expensive so you can't take very many. Also, sword and ranged die faster to the cav.

Tomi is probably right. It's still flawed enough that you might as well play regular with different florin amounts for each era. You'll get the most players involved that way.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well we could make a two spear minimum rule

[Tomisama]

If you really want to bring the game down to earth, try “all” cav at 0 valor, “all” else at v1.

That is the great equalizer, if there is one at all.

Please at least give it a look.

Baring an overwhelming response to that idea, I think we have to go back to regular play.

You'll get the most players involved that way.

Perhaps lower florin than the 10k norm?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I can see that on heavy cav bit not on things like mounted sarges or Alans. How about a limit on what you can spend on a unit? Like 675 per cav etc. That would leave out a few cav like Goths lancers and boyars though.

[Gobby]

Appreciated a change from the 10k with the concept of 1 val max based @ 8500k
makes for an intersting game with the chalenge of balanceing units

[Orda Khan]

It makes no difference. MTW or VI are both flawed

......Orda

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Thanks for brightening our day.

[Tomisama]

I can see that on heavy cav bit not on things like mounted sarges or Alans. How about a limit on what you can spend on a unit? Like 675 per cav etc. That would leave out a few cav like Goths lancers and boyars though.

Ok, too limiting for the light cavalries.

Going back to valor one “all” for a moment. How about lowering the florin level?

Now try to make an all valor one high era army out of 5000 florin.

Scary, but it can be done, and with choices.

Hey, this is starting to look like the real deal to me.

Anyone in agreement?



P.S. You could still make a cavalry heavy army out of 5k. But if it was stipulated that each player had to have all 16 units, the cav you could buy would be severely limited.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

We played some games tonight at 8.5k, 7 cav max. v1 max. We allowed v2 spears. Spears finally seemed to work well. Also Muslim factions seemed to be very competitive.

[Puzz3D]

Tomi,

In high era, I think 5000 for v1 is too low because it eliminates all the elite cav, and you are left with cav that cannot defeat swords such as v1 cmaa. I didn't look at early era.

Gawain's idea of 8500, v1 max but alowwing v2 spears is interesting. I would also allow v2 halberdiers.

[Tomisama]

Gawain's idea of 8500, v1 max but alowwing v2 spears is interesting. I would also allow v2 halberdiers.

Want to try it out, but does sound real good

If the above works out, are we back to 8k Early, 8.5 High, 9k Late?

And if we are going to do “max”, which allows v0 units, making more money available for others, and upgrades. I think we need to insist on a full 16 unit army.

So, valor 1 max with 2 max for spear, 7 max cav, 16 unit min, at 8,8.5, and 9k for eras?

[Puzz3D]

Wouldn't 7k early, 8k high and 9k late better track the average cost difference of an army in each of those eras, and also slighly adjust downward for the fact that you can take v0 units. You also need an amount for viking era possibly 8k.

Is the 7 max on cav really necessary or even useful? Some of the factions like Russian and Egyptian depend on cav because their melee infantry is relatively weak. 4 v0 chiv knights (675 each) + 4 v0 teutonic knights (675 each) + 4 v1 cmaa (425 each) + 4 v1 fmaa (298 each) = 8292 florins. That's basically the western army, minus one fmaa or one cav knight at 8k, that has to be countered.

The v1 max rule does help factions such as Turks because they can then use the expensive JHI at v0. It also makes possible the use of the expensive Boyars at v0 for Russian. Most ranged units will probably be used at v0 which should improve their cost/benefit ratio. Pumping up combo archer/melee units into highly effective melee units won't work with a v1 max rule, so these factions might remain weak relative to western factions. However, in a 4v4 game there are team strategies that can take advantage of one highly mobile but relatively weak army.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is the 7 max on cav really necessary or even useful? Some of the factions like Russian and Egyptian depend on cav because their melee infantry is relatively weak

Otherwise you will have many peep using all cav. Besides by allowing v2 spears these armies inf isnt so weak any more. Ive been using Egypt with 4 v2 saracens. You can also take V1 abys and upgrade them.

[Tomisama]

To my thinking having valor 2 spears really eliminates the need for a cavalry max limit.

Hey, you bring em, we’ll hoist em

And I believe all of the other suggestions made here and on line, are either directly or indirectly self fulfilling regulatories (made up word).

Also, considering v0 option, I see the 8k providing better control over excessive upgrades.

The Viking era? It really has never made the interest chart for CWC contests, and I don’t think it should be included here either.


At least to me, that leaves us with:

v1 max - v2 max spear* - no art

7k – 8k – 9k

*All units with an anti cavalry rating (will make a list).

Straight forward, simple, easily managed, and most important “sellable”!


Are we there yet?

[Tomisama]

List of units with special anti cavalry ratings.

1. Almughavars
2. ArmouredSpearmen
3. Billmen
4. ChivalricFootKnights
5. ChivalricSergeants
6. FeudalSergeants
7. GothicSergeants
8. Halbardiers
9. ItalianLightInfantry
10. JanissaryHeavyInfantry
11. MuwahidFoot
12. NegroSpearmen
13. OrderFootSoldiers
14. Pikemen
15. RoundShieldSpearmen
16. RusSpearmen
17. SaracenInfantry
18. Spearmen
19. SwissArmouredPikemen
20. SwissHalbardiers
21. SwissPikemen

Please note: The Byzantine have none of the above in any era.

A must have tool to help with army building decisions.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/tools/VIArmyBuilderPlus.zip

[zaphod]

or you could classify spears according to whether they have a rank bonus, or possibly unit size - 99 and above - which would include byz inf.