MTW or VI - Which Is Really The Best Medieval Multiplayer Game?

[Tomisama]

Just doing a little research for Medieval Clan Wars 4v4 Tournament.

Your participation and comments are appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[ichi]

Clearly VI, more units and fations, no swipe, better balance, fewer bugs.

ichi

ps where's the Gah! option

[Tomisama]

"I don’t play Medieval multiplayer" is the GAH!

[t1master]

tuff call....

it seems many who are in mtw are new to the game... they don't know about the exploits and even take units like pikes and chiv knights. these guys seem like good fellows, just new.

vi is clearly the better of the two,cause it's got viking era, imo the best era in the second installment, it's a guts era...

my point is, the mtw is looking like a good recruiting ground to find some new folks and say, hi, and go spend five or ten bucks and get vi... but i do love the english army in mtw, sooooo sweet :)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ti you contradict yourself here.

tuff call....

vi is clearly the better of the two

Its a no brainer. VI is the best game of its type ever invented for MP.

[Tomisama]

OK, and I don’t mean to be wise guy, but why are there people still playing MTW multiplayer?

I just checked the latest pricing for both the Viking Invasion Expansion Pack, and the Medieval Battle Collection (MTW/VI combo). They are both 19 to 20, dollars or pounds (either way).

So that’s 20 bucks for the “best” real-time-strategy multiplayer game “on the planet”!

Again, why was it there are people still playing MTW multiplayer?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Because for some reason noobs start with MTW. There are now more NOOBs than vets in MTW. Many vets now seem to go there for fun as its a bit different. I navent played MTW once since VI came out. Again to me VI is just an improved MTW all the way around. I was hoping Rome was to continue the same progression as , STW,MTW,VI but alas they let me down.

[t1master]

gawain said it...

i am a walking contridiction :O)

but really, i pop on over to mtw, for a few reasons... one i don't often have to wait for a game, whilst in vi, if you miss the boat once, you are usually off for a few games or so, cause there are soo few in... two it's sorta like playing a new game... i didn't know what to expect when i reloaded mtw, i've had some fun though.. three, new blood, for what ever reason there are more n00bs in mtw, so we gotta get them in vi, the only way i can see to do that is play them in mtw then convince them to buy vi... telling them in the lobby mtw sucks is not gonna do it :)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ive never seen anyone say MTW sucks in the lobby. Now RTW thats another story

[TW_Taiko]

Why not do the tournament in both MTW and VI ? Tiger clan will surely participate in both tournament.

Tiger_Taiko

[Puzz3D]

Its a no brainer. VI is the best game of its type ever invented for MP.

Yes, but VI lacks balance. Original STW was better because the multiplayer balance was superior, and that outweighs the improvements to the battle engine in MTW/VI. However, the means are there in MTW/VI to restore the balance to what it was in STW v1.12, and actually improve on it. Check out Samurai Wars for an example of this.

The last time I played Samurai Wars I had 3 excellent 2v2 games in a 1 hour period online. That's a high return of enjoyment for the time invested. We also had a CWC competition using Samurai Wars, but made a mistake in using small maps which were not suited to the 3v3 team games.

[Puzz3D]

Why not do the tournament in both MTW and VI ? Tiger clan will surely participate in both tournament.

The winning technique in VI 4v4 high era has already been demonstrated by the Silent Assassins. Due to imbalance in VI, this technique converges to a single method. The replays are available. There is nothing more to be learned about VI 4v4 high era, and I suspect that the same technique works in the other eras as well. Since there are no good counterstrategies other than using the same strategy, it's probably difficult to attract older players back to play, but would probably still be interesting for newer players.

[AggonyDuck]

VI should be used over MTW for competitive play.
Already swiping alone should be enough to make it clear that MTW is hardly suited for a competitive game.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And then theres the huge increase in valor for some units like Lancers seem to accumulate in MTW.

[Puzz3D]

And then theres the huge increase in valor for some units like Lancers seem to accumulate in MTW.

Yes. In addition to removing the swipe exploit, the battlefield upgrades were removed in VI v2.01. Remember all the complaints about cav units with 3 or 4 men left in the endgame blowing away infantry units of 30 or more men. Fielding valor 0 cav knights with 1 weapon upgrade and then building it's valor during the battle was an effective technique in MTW.

[L'Impresario]

The winning technique in VI 4v4 high era has already been demonstrated by the Silent Assassins. Due to imbalance in VI, this technique converges to a single method. The replays are available. There is nothing more to be learned about VI 4v4 high era, and I suspect that the same technique works in the other eras as well.

I'm not completely in agreement with a single tactic being the key to win all games in vi, if my understanding of that tactic in the specific context above is correct.
The majority of 4v4s and 3v3 in CWC and similar competitions were played in steppes, and other maps were quite flat as well. I think that a change in competition settings could help a lot and there is always room for improvement in clan tactics; it's just that you need 4-6 people very goal-oriented, willing to spend long hours in order to perform a predetermined routine. This routine may vary but if the opponent hasn't trained much or at all, you don't need to strive for even better coordination - and in more complex maps, esp. large ones the amount of training needed increases geometrically. In the end it's not worth it IMO.
Just learn the basic exploits, when to send all of your cav to your allies' flank, how to block the enemy cav and inf from interfering, and in the end if you're bored of long games,just buy more cav and play in steppes;)

[TW_Taiko]

Personally, I think MTW and VI are balanced. Every unit can beat every unit if used correctly in MTW or VI. What is your definition of balance ? You want infantry to always beat cavalry and cavalry always beat archer and archer always kill infantry ? Thats not balanced, thats stupid.

Swipe is a bug, not cheat. If everyone know about the bug and know how to counter it, then its not a problem. I use swipe and I expect my opponent to swipe me too.

Host the tourney and let the players who love this game to play... leave behind all the people who say negative about this game.

Tiger_Taiko

[L'Impresario]

Well , that's a fundamentally flawed assumption.
Balance 101
Everyone can have a definition of balance , but in reality there is only a basic one and it's supposed to be an offspring of logic (and a bit of actual warfare). Spears will win over cav who will beat swords. Missiles will be inflicting some degree of damage as long as they far from the enemy, else die relatively fast. Other toop types will have specialised functions, though they'll still roughly fall in one category.

Inbalance due to game features
Theoretically at v0 the units are balanced as the above sentences are incorporated into the game. Pricing is still a rather complex process. Some say missiles are quite high priced for v0 but I won't delve into this. What I'll mention is the known inbalance due to valour.

Every unit can beat every unit if used correctly in MTW or VI.

This requires a relatively "good" player/team and a "worse" one. If I get 6 spear units 4 cav and 4 swords (and this would approach historical armies in western settings a tiny bit) and the "worse" player gets 6 swords and 7-8 cav, I can win him him but this doesn't mean that the army selection played a big role, rather the difference between my own better time in responsing to enemy movements and positioning, finding more opportunities to flank and/or having better allies in a team game.
This train of thought stems from the fact that valour upgrades are able to equate a large number of non-spear units (which are unwieldy for most players or in great quantities=more than the # of swords in your army). In the end the selection narrows down to 2(+1 axe) units, with the simple criteria of them having better stats and mrl than other infantry , and larger numbers than other swords. Any other selection won't necessarily bring defeat or disaster but it requires more planning and more effective action in-game. In high steppe 10k clan competitions tho, it's a no-no, the sword-cav combo will win, unless there is a certain plan, like having weak inf factions go all or almost alll cav and rushing one side (that's for 4v4s), or keeping their superior inf in check with your own for as long as possible while the attack is made to another point of the map/ or get superior and more massive ,mainly cav, help from allies.
Late Era adds other factors into the calculations, namely guns , maybe pikes as well, who can kill reliably a cav most of the time but surely they ain't indispensible. The thing that arquebusiers can hold their ground for a long time is also an indicator that something is wrong here, as they weren't designed with that purpose in mind. All this stat guessing and calculating results in a not-so-intuitive game. That's why you see new players often getting massacred in almost all situations; their armies might be reasonable from the in-gane descriptions of the units and history, but they aren't cost- and battle-effective in 10k for example. Plus they lack the experience to handle them properly, which reduces their chances of presenting even a slight challenge for the average VI player.

Regarding MTW
The swipe is a bug but it's no worse than the "battle upgrades". Lancers v0wpn1 sure can be quite nice, as VGv0wpn1 or any other very expensive unit. If they are cav and can capture more routers, then things are even more easy.

Love

Host the tourney and let the players who love this game to play... leave behind all the people who say negative about this game.

I think that many people who played the mp game for some while and were at least around during the 200-ppl-in-the-lobby period have no love for it in the way you mean it. It has evolved (?) from the swift and passionate love of the first years to the tender and inexcessive love that time brings, past the days when you close your eyes to faults and imperfections, but when you acknowledge and live with them. Or -as it has been shown repeatedly- divide memories from reality and find a new, fresher mistress
It's not bad, or anything else for that matter, enjoying a game that undoubtedly is not balanced in its current playing form

[Puzz3D]

You could play the tournament with all equal valor units and no other upgrades. As I recall, valor 1 gives a good morale level for VI, and 8500 florins is the amount of money to use for a 5000 florin equivalent game. This effectively limits the number of elite units you can purchase, and you see a wider variety of unit types being used. It's not as good as using a mod, but it's better than the game as it's normally played.

[Tomisama]

Taking direction from the above poll and contributed statements, I am now starting work on a Clan vs. Clan 4v4, Viking Invasion Revival Tournament.

Had planed to take the Contest Rounds through the Four Eras, on selected Large Custom Maps. And had thought to have a progressive system of Florin, graduating from 5 to 10k, to 15, and 20, in each successive Era Round.

That would be a 5k Viking, 10k Early, etc..

Straight forward and easy to keep straight. Sound challenging to anyone?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The winning technique in VI 4v4 high era has already been demonstrated by the Silent Assassins. Due to imbalance in VI, this technique converges to a single method. The replays are available. There is nothing more to be learned about VI 4v4 high era, and I suspect that the same technique works in the other eras as well.

What ever gave you this idea? I the last CWC Silents and RTK tied. It was only through the tie breaking rules that they won. This hardly proves that theirs was the only winning technique. As I was a sort of honorary member of SA and helped them practice and recruit ,this method I think I have some credibility here. It was the same basic thing Surp had used in the Deathby clan. The Silents were good for the same reason every other strong clan was ,good players and practicing together.They practiced their tecnique constantly until it became automatic. When ever we did this we also were almost unbeatable. Its not easy though to find players with the time and dedication to achieve this.SA was a sort of super clan yet we still fought them almost to a standstill. It could easily have gone either way.

[L'Impresario]

This tourney wasn't CWC, just the Premier League, a 3v3 10k high steppes championship (in which VDM actually finished 3rd in the normal season but for strange reason were placed 4th:P). By then (summer 2004) many clans had had the chance of getting more tourney games together, while some others had almost left VI altogether.
Defending teams had a big advantage in the tourney, I think if a statistic about this was made then it'd be clear that defenders won the majority of games when roughly equal teams played. In the end, as already said a couple of times, automatisation is the magic word, something not all clans can afford to do, I'm sure all know how hard is to get 4 players from vastly different places and convince not to play freely for their enjoyment, but force an authority upon them and make them play out repeatedly your game.
Don't think that Yuuki mentioned that the SA were a superteam , but other clans had to play almost along the same lines if they wanted to win.

As I was a sort of honorary member of SA and helped them practice and recruit

Don't want to create any fuss, as much time has passed since then, but this weird dude that all had come to love and appreciate;) did tell me in March and April 2004 that SA had you and Ichi as members along with other old players, but I didn't actually give it much thought as there was an overly amount of clan intrigue for my stomach at the time and people say a lot of things - even that fellow, he certainly said more than his share heh. Now that you write about being a trainer did remind me this and does clear up some things:)

[Puzz3D]

What ever gave you this idea? I the last CWC Silents and RTK tied. It was only through the tie breaking rules that they won. This hardly proves that theirs was the only winning technique.

RTK didn't come up with something that beat it. My clan fought them to a close match as well in CWC, but I could see what they were doing and there's no counter for it except the same technique with the same unit selection. It then comes down to who executes better. You haven't said anything that discounts my statement.

How do you square with your RTK clanmates that you helped train a rival clan that then went on to beat your own clan in a tournament?

[t1master]

are these the power armies that the wolves and tawain cavaliers used in their cwc final? the long rows of pavs, heavy swords/horsies and some longbows? then you create a hot spot and feed it?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How do you square with your RTK clanmates that you helped train a rival clan that then went on to beat your own clan in a tournament?

I dint help them train for this tournamnet. I helped Surp get SA started . I didnt participate in any tourney traing but I did help with the intial formation and training. I also didnt plauy for either side when we played eachother.

This tourney wasn't CWC, just the Premier League,

Yup my mistake. Thats the tourney we tied them in. Are you from VDM? If so whats your name. I also helped form that clan you know as well as quite a few others.

are these the power armies that the wolves and tawain cavaliers used in their cwc final? the long rows of pavs, heavy swords/horsies and some longbows? then you create a hot spot and feed it?

No just the opposite. SA use rush armies and just overpower a certain area. Few if any range units are used by them.

[Puzz3D]

No just the opposite. SA use rush armies and just overpower a certain area. Few if any range units are used by them.

Yes. They used a diamond geometry in 4v4. If you set up against them in a line of 4 armies, they will be able to bring a higher concentration of units to any point on your line whether you defend or attack because the average path length for the diamond to any point is shorter than it is for a line. When you combine that with the fact that they used the most cost effective melee units what are you to do except adopt the same technique? Cavalry was also very important in helping achieving an overwhelming concentration of force. The counter to this strategy would be spears that could decisively defeat calvalry, but MTW/VI doesn't have them. I used swiss halberdiers, and they almost worked to counter the strategy. They are less cost efficient than the swords, but maybe they would have worked if I could have played a little better. The method isn't as effective in 3v3 because you can't make a diamond geometry, but you still have to match them unit for unit.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I used swiss halberdiers, and they almost worked to counter the strategy. They are less cost efficient than the swords, but maybe they would have worked if I could have played a little better. The method isn't as effective in 3v3 because you can't make a diamond geometry, but you still have to match them unit for unit.

Yes Halbs were the best thing to use against them. Lional and Kay were very good with them. Again we won as many battles as they did and we didnt use the same strategy as they did. I maintain that our top four players at that time could hold their own or beat SA most of the time. We could have scored many more points but we let many people play. Our first team was almost unbeaten in this tourney.

[L'Impresario]

That tourney was indeed a nice one as the first 8 places were constantly changing , as teams were almost different after a couple of games, as it was played over a long period of time and the last 10 games (including playoffs) took place during summer iirc.
But it was a 3v3 tourney and rushing was less effective as noted above. The use of a /---\ type of defense was very popular and most defenders could make use of internal lines much better than in 4v4. In VDM's case, the team that ahieved most of our streak of wins used basically cav and sword armies augmented by camels who ended up chewing up more than their share of cav.

Are you from VDM?

Lol, look at my sig Gaw;)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hail Alex my freind. Hey you do realise we sent a very second class team to face you guys dont you. It was far from our best players. If we stayed with only our first team we would have easily won that tourney.

[L'Impresario]

Well I don't think most teams used their best teams. We didn't use our best team as well and had very little, if any at all, training. It was also the first battle Buu played at any tourney heh I remember your team was Alymere, Yvain and Lional, and while I too worried and occupied about Buu messing up, he in the end made the decisive moves and won the game. I still haven't seen how we played during the last games of that season but I heard that clans started rushing with increasing frequency heh

If we stayed with only our first team we would have easily won that tourney

Dunno about that, most clans were already starting/finishing their exodus from VI and even so games were challenging due to the nature of the tourney. A mediocre team can become good and quite effective if it studies its opponents in a given setting that stays the same.