how much do macadonians kick tail!!!!

[IliaDN]

Partian empire looks great too!

[Conqueror]

I like the Numidian and Armenian colors but not Brutii. Wrong type of green they got

Back on topic (well, sort of): If we assume generals of equal skill, in a Seleucids vs Macedonians fight, then I'll put my money on Seleucids. With equal generals, neither side will be likely to outflank the other's cavalry. So it will likely be a head-on cavalry fight, if they fight at all. Phalanxes will be basically the mirrors of each other (levy pikes, phalanx pikes, royal/silver shield pikes available for the two factions) so no advantage to either side there. Assuming it's a fight with units available in the campaign, both sides can hire cretans, so no archer advantage to either (in custom/MP battle, standard RTW, the Maccies will have advantage here).

Whether or not Elephants or legionaries are used at all is entirely up to the Seleucid general. They're not really needed, since he already has superior cavalry in otherwise almost identical armies. Legionaries might be useful on the flanks of the phalanx line. Elephants can be useful if there aren't too much archers.

In the end, Seleucids have more options at their disposal, but they can always play it safe and mirror the Macedonian army.

[alx1078]

Seamus... great post, although the upseting thing about this game's AI as pezhetairoi wrote, is that most people who play the game are better at it, and believe me Most people have no clue of what you wrote in that post of yours let alone know any of the battles or historical instances you mentioned ( i myself know just half of those and i pride myself of being a part-time history buff.)

As for the debate:

Seleucids do indeed have the most impressive army, but as a general i would always chose to have the Macedonians for every reason pezhetairoi wrote (along with the fact that i live there ). Early on in the game, there are few armies that can deal the damage a Macedonian army can, if commanded carefuly. Plus the starting point is ideal for world domination.

Seleucids start off with way too many enemies, and formidable ones to face with their early army. Plus in order for them to get some doe they have to challenge the Egyptians/Ptolemays.

And as A Macedon general, i have ended battles (against Romans) of 1000 + on both sides with 30 or 40 casualties on my side and a complete destruction of the oponent, by just using peltasts, archers and LL to deliver the final blows (while my phalanxes just waited for an attack that was never made -they all routed before they reached me), or by using just 4-5 units of phalanxes and 6-7 units of Mac Cavalry and LL (with no archers or missile whatsoever). So i guess that's the beauty of the Macedonians. You can achieve victory either with missile or by phalanx, but always with Horses.

That's the Key!Cavalry. Lots of it.

[Lord Preston]

Those are nice colour combis... white and blue, well, I must admit I never took a liking to it... looks too sissy to me :-P Blood will stain it easier than on black or red, too. =)

you call them sissy yet you worry about stains!

[Garvanko]

They're like wasps, those Lancers.

[pezhetairoi]

you call them sissy yet you worry about stains!

A very good point, Preston! A very good point!

But I love the Lancers, because as bad as their armour is, that means no armour piercing attack has any effect on them which means they're ideal for dealing with Cataphracts/Desert Cavalry, at the least. You may ask, why cataphracts? Sure they'll take casualties like hell, but at least they won't be fighting at a relative disadvantage compared to other more armoured foes. And they're cheaper, easier to retrain, and have you seen that charge bonus?

[Wishazu]

I thought the charge bonus was "broken" in rome total war?????

[pezhetairoi]

It so is not... Or at least, not in my Rome Total War. But my Rome is weird. The 1.2 patch has close to no effect, for example. But nay, LL have an effect. Anyway, even if they don't, it is sufficient to get them to charge en masse. the Charge bonus is just a bonus, as its name implies. As long as they charge, that's good enough for me; with the battles going as they are that is sufficient to win the war for me.

[Rayven1]

My tactic is a pretty traditional one. I stay in my spot while the stupid AI marches my way. I sit there firing siege weapons into the enemy formations till they get close enough for me to open up with arrows. Once they have gotten a bit closer I allow the auxila skermishers to throw a round or two of javilins before retiring behind my infantry. Once the auxilia has retired I allow the first line of infantry to go into fire at will mode. Most enemy units break from the first salvo of pilums even before they make contact with my first line. If they don't break then I allow the second line to go into fire at will while my cav harrasses the enemy missle troops to keep them out of range. The AI seems to like a all or nothing approch so by this time they would have destroyed thier cav on my spear troops, charging into obvious traps on the left and right flanks..

[pezhetairoi]

A nice strategy, but it's based on the assumption that the AI will come to you, and that you have lots of missile power. I rely on shock so you'll forgive me if I say this strategy isn't really very practical from a personal bias... Although I do use archers to open the battle whenever possible.

[Rayven1]

Its my experience that the AI when attacking will always come to you. I try to be on the defencive as much as possible because I get the best results that way with minium loss. I usually allow my army to wait nearly the full duration of a siege if the enemy garrison is large. This way I draw them into combat outside the city walls. A little trick I use on the AI is to park an army right in front of the enemy stack forcing him to ether turn around or attack to get through my area of control. Usually works to draw the enemy into a scrape he will not get out of. Being on the defence however can backfire when facing armies like Macadon which will use almost all cav and siege weapons. Key to those battles is to have a good amount of spear units to counter the cav and to get into melee as quickly as possible. Set your siege weapons on 1) enemy general(siege weapons seem to hit him if you target him more often than not) 2) enemy siege equipment.

If you are low on missle units pilas can make up for that if you use them right and have atleast a unit of skermishers. I never turn on fire at will as a default. I usually save them for the main body of the enemy infantry. Often the enemy will send up skermishers or a single unit of infantry first and if you have fire at will on you will waste your ammo with crappy results. Wait for the main body to engage and then turn on fire at will on your front line only. This way if you even need engage with your second line they will have a nice set of pilums to throw at the already weakened enemy.

[pezhetairoi]

nicely argued; that's what I do if I was on defensive, but most of the time I prefer to force an engagement instead of just waiting in the enemy's red zone... Admittedly though I base this on my experience when I tried three times as Germania to stand in an enemy's red zone and he just stood there and stared back at me until I lost patience and attacked him. The enemy's attacking you only matters if you're already at war with him and your chances of winning are significantly lower than his. Or so it seems; no faceoff in which I have parity or more in red/blue ratio has ended in the enemy attacking me, only when they are fighting battles of relief.

[bubbanator]

I use Rayven1's stratagy only if I am defending against lightly armored troops like the germans, or if I have onagers. Usualy, my army is about 2/3 infantry 1/3 cavalry. I exploit the AI formation and just wait until they come at me in their line. Once they engage my line, I just run around and focus all of my cavalry and archers on one unit. The line breaks. It's almost too easy.

If I am attacking, I still use the same basic thing. I just advance my infantry line, throw my pillas. I have my reserve units and archers fireing at the center unit. I then advance until I am in hand to hand combat, then I let my cavalry destroy them. This makes it even easier when attacking because I can sit back all day with my one or two units of Cretan Archers and annihalate the center unit.

Overall, I prefer Pez's stratagy of using overwhelming force at their weakest point. Well, I agree with your battle map stratagy (we differ in how we work the campign map)

[gardibolt]

My tactic is a pretty traditional one. I stay in my spot while the stupid AI marches my way. I sit there firing siege weapons into the enemy formations till they get close enough for me to open up with arrows. Once they have gotten a bit closer I allow the auxila skermishers to throw a round or two of javilins before retiring behind my infantry. Once the auxilia has retired I allow the first line of infantry to go into fire at will mode. Most enemy units break from the first salvo of pilums even before they make contact with my first line. If they don't break then I allow the second line to go into fire at will while my cav harrasses the enemy missle troops to keep them out of range. The AI seems to like a all or nothing approch so by this time they would have destroyed thier cav on my spear troops, charging into obvious traps on the left and right flanks..

I have never, ever, had the AI do anything but just sit there unless I attack them first. If I did this I would lose every single battle on the timer.

[pezhetairoi]

yeah. so true.

[Rayven1]

EDIT: (I should have said who I was responding to)

I have never, ever, had the AI do anything but just sit there unless I attack them first. If I did this I would lose every single battle on the timer. --Gardibolt


hmm... wondering what game you are playing . The AI will always come to you if they are attacking. What I mean is that if thier army attacks yours and starts the battle they will always come to you. If you are on the attack however a different strategy is needed since they will indeed wait for you to come to them. The tactic I mentioned is very effective. You can often force the AI to attack by parking your army in a place where they have to move through your area of control. Often I will siege a city and allow my army to sit there for the duration of the siege because 1 of 2 things will happen. Either they will attack me and give me another heroic victory using the tactic I mentioned in my last post or they will forfeit the city and I lose no troops at all. Right now in my RTR game its 118BC and I control 128 regions. 627 battles won 98 lost(mostly sea battles against egypt. I do not understand sea battles and why my fleet will engage one ship at a time when there are 300 ships in the fleet.)

[pezhetairoi]

naval battles are the one blemish in my record... otherwise it's, so far, at least 1400 battles in 7 campaigns, no land defeats.

It's possible to make the enemy move for you in offensive battle... but you have to put them in such a situation that they are forced to react. E.g. as spain I like to move my cavalry to threaten their flank so my infantry can outflank them where they don't expect it, after they move their line to respond. Or for Macedon I like advancing my pike line to striking distance so they are forced either to charge at me or face my cavalry coming round the back. Alternatively, eat arrows, stupid Greeks! They'll come. They have no choice.

[Deus ret.]

They'll come. They have no choice.

There's an exception to this, though: When the enemy sallies forth and your army is superior to theirs, they will stop sending their troops out of the town to be massacred by your forces quite soon.
This is one of the rare occasions where one really regrets to have switched off the battle time limit... because to end the battle, you either have to retreat, i.e. abandon the siege, or storm the city yourself (in a SALLY battle). Well, hopefully you've equipped yourself with some means to get past those walls.
Pretty annoying, that one. Even if it's the enemy who attacks, they force you to attack them if you actually want to win.

[Dark_Magician]

1 to 1, any archer wins against AI hoplites. Just by firing and retreating

[Dark_Magician]

There's an exception to this, though: When the enemy sallies forth and your army is superior to theirs, they will stop sending their troops out of the town to be massacred by your forces quite soon.

Me, it usually helped to follow their retreating units through the gate and capturing them in the process. Be careful as the gates still pour stuff

[gardibolt]

EDIT: (I should have said who I was responding to)

I have never, ever, had the AI do anything but just sit there unless I attack them first. If I did this I would lose every single battle on the timer. --Gardibolt


hmm... wondering what game you are playing . The AI will always come to you if they are attacking. What I mean is that if thier army attacks yours and starts the battle they will always come to you. If you are on the attack however a different strategy is needed since they will indeed wait for you to come to them.

Ah, I see where the miscommunication came in. I'm too aggressive; I always attack the AI before it can attack me. So I wouldn't ever see it do anything but sit and wait.

[pezhetairoi]

Some factions are more suited for defensive battles... the HA factions, of course, are definitely in this category. Usually when the enemy sallies, I already have 3 rams. So if they stop coming out, I will go to them. But of course, if this happens to be a last-turn sally, then the enemy will keep rushing out at you until they are dead or the cause is lost anyway. Yummy.

[Deus ret.]

then the enemy will keep rushing out at you until they are dead or the cause is lost anyway. Yummy.

Will they? I have had sally battles in which the enemy decides so stop sending out victims (=troops) after maybe half of their army is dead, this is what I described above. So e.g. if you have a cav-only army, you're screwed if you aren't fast enough to take the gate (of wooden walls). The problem is that you have to retreat in this case and re-start siegeing since there is no battle time which could run out. dead end, that one.

[Kourutsu]

I destroyed them with Germ warfare. I didn't have to send one unit in to take care of them.

[LestaT]

My Roman armies are punishing the Dacians (now down to their last city) when my ally Macedonia decides to stab my back... Luckily my Principees are all battle hardened now so their phalanx and hoplites are no more a nuisance to me ...

[pezhetairoi]

Not so when they have fullstacks to throw at you... any fullstack is more than just a nuisance.