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Thread: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

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    Survey: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war
    42,500 injuries also recorded by Iraq Body Count

    Tuesday, July 19, 2005 Posted: 1712 GMT (0112 HKT)

    (CNN) -- Nearly 25,000 civilians have been killed since the start of the Iraq war, according to a group that tracks the civilian death toll from the conflict.

    The Iraq Body Count -- a London-based group comprising academics and human rights and anti-war activists -- said on Tuesday that 24,865 civilians had died between March 20, 2003 and March 19, 2005.

    The group said 42,500 injuries were recorded as well.

    The report also said that "U.S.-led forces were sole killers of 37 percent of civilian victims" and that "anti-occupation forces were sole killers of 9 percent of civilian victims." It added that "criminals killed 36 percent of all civilians."

    "Our data has been extracted from a comprehensive analysis of over 10,000 press and media reports published since March 2003. Our accounting is not complete: only an in-depth, on-the-ground census could come close to achieving that," the group said.

    "But if journalism is the first draft of history, then this dossier may claim to be an early historical analysis of the military intervention's known human costs."

    The Iraqi government disputed some of the finding of the report.

    "We welcome the attention given by this report to Iraqi victims of violence but we consider that it is mistaken in claiming that the plague of terrorism has killed fewer Iraqis than the multinational forces," said the prime minister's office, citing recent terror strikes, including the Musayyib bombing that killed nearly 100 people on Saturday.

    "The international forces try to avoid civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists target civilians and try to kill as many of them as they can."

    The U.S. military in Iraq reacted to the report by saying that "coalition forces have not targeted the Iraqi civilian population during Operation Iraqi Freedom."

    It added, "We go to extreme lengths to ensure that everything possible is done to ensure that they are not put in harm's way during our operations. The only organization capable of reliable data is the Iraqi Ministry of Health and the Iraqi government."

    Iraq Body Count said that its "data has been extracted from a comprehensive analysis of over 10,000 press and media reports published since March 2003. Our accounting is not complete: only an in-depth, on-the-ground census could come close to achieving that.

    "But if journalism is the first draft of history, then this dossier may claim to be an early historical analysis of the military intervention's known human costs."

    Here are some of the trends the group culled from its data:

    # 82 percent of those killed were adult males, 9 percent were adult women, 1 in 10 was under age 18;

    # Baghdad was the site of almost half of the deaths and Falluja had the second highest loss of life;

    # Figures indicate that the single largest occupational grouping of deaths were police;

    # Explosive devices figures in more than half of the civilian deaths, with air strikes causing 64 percent of such deaths;

    # 4.3 percent of civilians were killed by suicide vehicle bombs and 3.4 percent by non-suicide vehicle bombs;

    # Mortuary officials and medics "were the most frequently reported witnesses" and "police have become increasingly significant as primary sources over time."

    Tracking civilian deaths has been a challenge for Iraqi government officials in Iraq, and estimates have varied in different reports attempting to quantify death toll figures.

    The prime minister's office Tuesday said that:

    "The Iraqi Ministry of Health continually counts the number of civilians killed and wounded and their most recent figures show that 6,629 Iraqi civilians were killed and 23,838 wounded between April 2004 and April 2005.

    "Figures from the Ministry of the Interior, which include casualties from Iraq's armed forces, show that 8,175 Iraqis were killed in the 10 months between July 2004 and May 2005.

    "The root cause of Iraq's suffering is terrorism, inherited from Saddam's fascist regime and from mistaken fundamentalist ideology. The solution to it lies in developing Iraq's security forces and its political process -- and whoever wants to help Iraq should spend their efforts in supporting this.

    "Everybody knows that international forces are necessary in Iraq, on a temporary basis, for this process to take place and they will leave Iraq at a time chosen by Iraqis, not in response to terrorist pressure."

    The multinational forces' statement underscored that its operation has been "prosecuted in the most precise fashion of any conflict in the history of modern warfare. We know that the loss of any innocent lives is a tragedy, something Iraqi security forces and the multi-national force painstakingly work to avoid every single day.

    "It should not be lost on anyone that the former regime elements, terrorists and insurgents have made a practice of deliberately targeting noncombatants; of using civilians as human shields; and of operating and conducting attacks against coalition forces from within areas inhabited by civilians."

    Iraq Body Count says in the report that its number-tracking project "is, in our view, among the highest humanitarian imperatives, an imperative which has particular application to governments who conduct military interventions.

    "Assurances that military forces 'make every effort to avoid civilian casualties' are no substitute for real data-gathering and analysis, and can have no basis without it.

    "On the eve of the invasion (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair stated '(Saddam Hussein) will be responsible for many, many more deaths even in one year than we will be in any conflict.' Only data such as presented here will allow a realistic evaluation of such predictions."
    I understand that America wants to protect itself, but 25,000 people have now needlessly died when Iraq didn't support terrorism and Saudi Arabia actually gives money to terrorists. I don't understand how Bush is getting away with this. He should be in a war crimes tribunal as we speak.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    This is such credible source

    -- a London-based group comprising academics and human rights and anti-war activists -- said on Tuesday that 24,865 civilians had died between March 20, 2003 and March 19, 2005.
    I wonder how much bias they put in


    I wonder how many of these killed by the coalition "civilians" were toting ak47s



    I don't understand how Bush is getting away with this. He should be in a war crimes tribunal as we speak.

    BS saddam should be in the war crimes tribunal.

    Do you think the same about President Truman for nuking japan.


    edited for grammar
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 07-19-2005 at 19:56.
    Formerly ceasar010

  3. #3

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    LoL good job spotting the source Ceasar, see why I nominated you for most promising.

    Any group that includes anti-war activists.. not just people against the war, but activists, is certainly not objective.

    Nice try though, BP. Werent you claiming 100k had died a few months ago.. have you readjusted your numbers?

  4. #4
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Do you think the same about President Truman for nuking japan.
    Yes.

    Any group that includes anti-war activists.. not just people against the war, but activists, is certainly not objective.
    Why not?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Regardless, it was a war crime.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  6. #6

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Why not?
    Conflict of interests, not to mention Iraq Body Count's past claims.

    He has a point Panzer. One could consider Pro-War Activists to be just as Bias.
    I would not believe numbers from a group that contains people who identify themselves as pro-war either.

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    25,000? That's it?
    You make Iraq seem like it's Vietnam.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  8. #8
    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Ack. This is annoying. This is war and people die... get used to it and move on... nothing I can do about, nothing you can do about, nothing America can do about it, nothing the world can do about it short of just obliterating everything we have now and start fresh, but even that wouldn't stop innocents from dying now would it? If it were up to me, I would give the politicians in each country their own weapons and let them kill each other, but thats never going to happen because the world is just chalk full of idealists. 25,000 Civilians is nothing... I have to agree with Stalin on this issue "A Single Death is a tragedy; a Million Deaths is a statistic."

  9. #9

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    That would be an impressive feat. Where do you get your information from then? I have yet to come accross a news organization, politician, or activist group that isn't decidedly pro or anti war.
    There are plenty of journalists with a vested interest in responsible journalism who dont let their opinions get in the way of their reporting. Iraq Body Count however has a stated agenda, and theyve made wild claims before.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Regardless, it was a war crime.
    Baloney. Both cities were legitimate targets. They were in fact preserved for the demonstration of the weapons. They were dropped to save hundreds of thousands of U.S. lives, as well as hundreds of thousands of Japanese. And they succeeded. It was certainly more humane than starving the islands and inflicting far more casualties.

    Truman did more to prevent war with these bombings than anything else I can think of in the 20th century. Without this demonstration of determination and power, Russia and China would not have been content with a Cold War.
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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Japan ATTACKED the US!! Iraq did NOT do anything to America!!!

    "There was no connection between Saddam and the hijackers of 911" - George W Bush

    Even he said it; ON VIDEO!!!

    So 25,000 innocent people died for no purpose. It doesn't matter if it's 25,000 100,000 or even 1,000, it's still too much.

    "A Single Death is a tragedy; a Million Deaths is a statistic."
    Right, and why are not a million deaths a million tragedies. Leave it to Stalin to come up with a saying that makes sense.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Nice try though, BP. Werent you claiming 100k had died a few months ago.. have you readjusted your numbers?
    The 100k are from The Lancet which compared mortality rates from before the war and from during/after the war. These 100k "excess" deaths have not been directly linked to specific causes, such as armed violence, illness etc.

    Very recently the Geneva-based "Graduate Institute of International Studies" published a report that gives a number of 39k Iraqis that have been killed as a direct result of combat or armed violence since the U.S.-led invasion (unfortunately I could not find this report on their website).

    Do you have any numbers from sources you would consider unbiased for comparison?
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 07-19-2005 at 20:28.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Their numbers seem whacked. There have been far too many insurgent/terrorist bomb attacks that have killed civilians for the count to be right. They are saying only about 2,300 civilian casualties from insurgents? Preposterous.

    As for U.S. inflicted civilan casualties, no doubt the number is truly high, but quite a few "civilians" weren't, too. After all "82 percent of those killed were adult males." That stat alone is proof enough that their interpretation of the numbers if flat out WRONG. They obviously did nothing to sort out enemy combatants from civilians in their counts.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Japan ATTACKED the US!! Iraq did NOT do anything to America!!!
    BP, that's just stupid.

    They invaded an ally and attacked two or three other allies with scud missiles. Iraq had killed a number of U.S. servicemen and women in the same war. They also were attempting to kill more by shooting at U.S. aircraft daily. Since they remained belligerent and were committing acts of war, we had justification for invading.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Japan ATTACKED the US!! Iraq did NOT do anything to America!!!

    "There was no connection between Saddam and the hijackers of 911" - George W Bush

    Even he said it; ON VIDEO!!!

    So 25,000 innocent people died for no purpose. It doesn't matter if it's 25,000 100,000 or even 1,000, it's still too much.

    "A Single Death is a tragedy; a Million Deaths is a statistic."
    Right, and why are not a million deaths a million tragedies. Leave it to Stalin to come up with a saying that makes sense.
    Repeat after me there BP - Desert Shield/Desert Storm

    Breaking of the initial Cease Fire that ended hostilities between Collation Forces signed by the United States, The United Kingdom, THe Kingdom of Saudi Arabi, The Kingdom of Kuwait, and Iraq.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    25,000 is not all that much, really.
    Thats only 4 times the number killed at Srebinka, and that only took a day!
    And I shall say this again...
    So What?

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  17. #17
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    LOL, liberals on this board make out like Iraq was Disney World before the invasion. Free medical care, a chicken in every pot, and a loving leader who kissed babies, walked on water, and healed lepers.
    RIP Tosa

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    DAVES BAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!
    w00t

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  19. #19

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Yes.
    You think nuking japan was WRONG I wish we dropped earlier. My grandpa is a local leader of the dav(disabled american veterans) some of the members were pows in japan(guess how they got disabled ) hear their stories and i guarantee you will wish we dropped earlier.


    On topic


    Besides i would rather 500 Iraqi civilians die then 50 american soldiers.

    My uncles friend just got back from iraq and said something like this

    "when ever you see something that doesn't look right you shot at it... am I proud of that no, did i come back in one piece yes.


    thanks for the comment panzer
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    25,000 is not all that much, really.
    Thats only 4 times the number killed at Srebinka, and that only took a day!
    And I shall say this again...
    So What?
    Well, they are innocent people. It violates the Geneva Convention, and it would be one thing if the soldiers who killed them were being put on trial. However, I don't think there has been much prosecution, however.
    In addition, I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge the death toal caused by our actions. Has the US kept a tally? Do they have a more accurate number of people that they killed?

    # Figures indicate that the single largest occupational grouping of deaths were police;
    This is an interesting fact. I believe this also includes criminals and terrorists, however.

    Ceasar, I do not believe somehow being a soldier and American makes there life more important than a civilian that did nothing wrong. This I believe addresses both of your points.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-19-2005 at 21:15.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    Besides i would rather 500 Iraqi civilians die then 50 american soldiers.
    That says a lot about you.

    Fortunately, there are enough people (including conservatives) who do not share your view.

  22. #22
    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    make that 5.000.000.000 for every .005 american and I'm in agreement wiht you

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Soldiers are supposed to die. Innocents are not.
    edit: Gah! Let me explain. Soldiers volentarily went to risk their life. Innocents should never die, while soldiers know that they might die.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-19-2005 at 21:18.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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  24. #24

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Whats wrong with me caring more about my fellow americans more then an iraqi.

    Think of it this way you dont want any one to die but... would you rather some one elses reletive died or your own
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    It seems some things never change...in the name of being 'unbiased' in this forum we still can hear a whole bunch of crap...

    ...somehow, people who are justifying 25.000 civilian deaths are 'normal'...

    ...they used to be able to say that its for a greater cause, a better Iraq. Such ideas are now laughable, Iraq is a murdered nation, divided and filled with hatred. Even if the occupation forces withdraw Iraq might never recover...

    ...1/500th of the people who have died in Iraq have died in London...for no reason...the people in Iraq died for no reason too...arent they humans? Why are the Iraqis allowed to be viewed as numbers and not us? Doesnt Al-Qaeda use the same reason to justify the taking of live as the U.S do? 'for the greater good' or ' because they did the same'...

    ...I wonder how will the 'war addicts' who post here react if a terrorist hit kills 25.000 people in the US and they are met with a global apathy, the same apathy they are showing now. How about if a bunch of people say it was for the best? How about if someone says the number might be overrated so its ok because not too many died?

    ...I can understand unbiased and fair but to see people dismiss 25.000 deaths so easily is to say the least barbaric and provocative...

    ...I will remind some people that they were giving their word that if no WMD's are found then they would accept this war is a war crime, they should save a bit of their dignity....




    The way the murder of innocents is advocated here is disgusting...We are lucky we didnt get any Al Qaeda sympathisers to tell us why the London attack was "fair justified and necessary"...If we wouldnt accept that why should we accept it from the other side? Could we have some rational thinking please? Well, I guess not...
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  26. #26
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Both my Grandpas fought in WW2. I would be very sad if they had died (since I wouldn't exist), however, they went knowing what they might die. Innocents of all wars had no such choice however.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  27. #27

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    japanese were not very civilian like.... many of them worked in factories making weapons for free. And many were going to fight when American soldiers came.

    There are still some japanese soldiers hiding in the mountains they found some not long ago and there are more out there. We would have lost to many americans if we invaded conventionally.


    any way back on topic.
    Formerly ceasar010

  28. #28
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    It seems some things never change...in the name of being 'unbiased' in this forum we still can hear a whole bunch of crap...

    ...somehow, people who are justifying 25.000 civilian deaths are 'normal'...
    Justify or condemn - war is war. People die both the combatants and the civilians caught in the crossfire. Death in warfare is completely normal and is expected. To minimize the loss of civilians by making acidine comparrisions is indeed foolish and shows a lack of empthay for thier lose. However to deny that death is not-normal in warfare is well naive.
    ...they used to be able to say that its for a greater cause, a better Iraq. Such ideas are now laughable, Iraq is a murdered nation, divided and filled with hatred. Even if the occupation forces withdraw Iraq might never recover...
    Your opinion and noted - however having been in Iraq during the first Gulf War, seeing what I saw of the rape of Kuwait by Iraq soldiers - and the destruction of war - I can safely say that the leadership of Iraq brought this war to their front door - along with Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. However it seems that some rather condemn just one side - verus look at the complete picture.

    ...1/500th of the people who have died in Iraq have died in London...for no reason...the people in Iraq died for no reason too...arent they humans? Why are the Iraqis allowed to be viewed as numbers and not us? Doesnt Al-Qaeda use the same reason to justify the taking of live as the U.S do? 'for the greater good' or ' because they did the same'...
    Death is death - everyone dies. Sometimes its for senseless reasons - say a school shooting, sometimes its because of warfare. Warfare to some is senseless, and to others it sometimes becomes necessary. The difference and one that some do not want to understand is that individuals that conduct attacks like Al-Qaeda do it on purpose to attack civilians to cause fear. Most civilian causalities caused by Military Forces are done so because of accident, or the civilians were in the wrong place at the wrong time, ie caught in the crossfire between two converging armies. There have been notable expections to that philisophy committed by many armies - but general the last 30 years of combat - the United States Military has attempt to avoid - but is not been very successful in complete avoidance of civilian causalites.

    ...I wonder how will the 'war addicts' who post here react if a terrorist hit kills 25.000 people in the US and they are met with a global apathy, the same apathy they are showing now. How about if a bunch of people say it was for the best? How about if someone says the number might be overrated so its ok because not too many died?
    It happened not only during the recent bombings in London - but during immediately after 9/11.

    ...I can understand unbiased and fair but to see people dismiss 25.000 deaths so easily is to say the least barbaric and provocative...
    agreed

    ...I will remind some people that they were giving their word that if no WMD's are found then they would accept this war is a war crime, they should save a bit of their dignity....
    Maybe some should realize that violations of the Cease Fire Agreement by Saddams government was more then enough reason for war. SOme should realize that 12 years of failed United Nations policies, sanctions, and resolutions was not going to solve the issue.


    The way the murder of innocents is advocated here is disgusting...We are lucky we didnt get any Al Qaeda sympathisers to tell us why the London attack was "fair justified and necessary"...If we wouldnt accept that why should we accept it from the other side? Could we have some rational thinking please? Well, I guess not...
    Yep it seems you are accusing others of not being rational - while doing the same thing yourself.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  29. #29
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    I think I can trust their figures a quick look here seems to have based their calculations on reputable sources. I am inclined to believe their data. More civilians have died due to US/Coalition forces then terrorists overall.

    However, If we to draw a graph of on the causes of civilian deaths, I think you would see the rapid decline of civilian deaths after the initial conflict and then an increase in deaths by terrorists.
    We work to live, and to live is to, play "Total War" or drive a VR-4

  30. #30

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Some people are still acting as if this number by Iraq Body Count is truthful. Accepting numbers from anti-war activists signals a severe lack of critical thinking and/or a biased willingness to accept such numbers.

    The 100k are from The Lancet which compared mortality rates from before the war and from during/after the war. These 100k "excess" deaths have not been directly linked to specific causes, such as armed violence, illness etc.

    Very recently the Geneva-based "Graduate Institute of International Studies" published a report that gives a number of 39k Iraqis that have been killed as a direct result of combat or armed violence since the U.S.-led invasion (unfortunately I could not find this report on their website).

    Do you have any numbers from sources you would consider unbiased for comparison?
    I think all the extremely different numbers being thrown around by people who have agendas indicates none of them should be taken at face value. Trying to count bodies in the middle of a combat zone is a dubious task in itself... almost as dubious as trying to separate real facts from agendas.

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