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  1. #1
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

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    Survey: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war
    42,500 injuries also recorded by Iraq Body Count

    Tuesday, July 19, 2005 Posted: 1712 GMT (0112 HKT)

    (CNN) -- Nearly 25,000 civilians have been killed since the start of the Iraq war, according to a group that tracks the civilian death toll from the conflict.

    The Iraq Body Count -- a London-based group comprising academics and human rights and anti-war activists -- said on Tuesday that 24,865 civilians had died between March 20, 2003 and March 19, 2005.

    The group said 42,500 injuries were recorded as well.

    The report also said that "U.S.-led forces were sole killers of 37 percent of civilian victims" and that "anti-occupation forces were sole killers of 9 percent of civilian victims." It added that "criminals killed 36 percent of all civilians."

    "Our data has been extracted from a comprehensive analysis of over 10,000 press and media reports published since March 2003. Our accounting is not complete: only an in-depth, on-the-ground census could come close to achieving that," the group said.

    "But if journalism is the first draft of history, then this dossier may claim to be an early historical analysis of the military intervention's known human costs."

    The Iraqi government disputed some of the finding of the report.

    "We welcome the attention given by this report to Iraqi victims of violence but we consider that it is mistaken in claiming that the plague of terrorism has killed fewer Iraqis than the multinational forces," said the prime minister's office, citing recent terror strikes, including the Musayyib bombing that killed nearly 100 people on Saturday.

    "The international forces try to avoid civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists target civilians and try to kill as many of them as they can."

    The U.S. military in Iraq reacted to the report by saying that "coalition forces have not targeted the Iraqi civilian population during Operation Iraqi Freedom."

    It added, "We go to extreme lengths to ensure that everything possible is done to ensure that they are not put in harm's way during our operations. The only organization capable of reliable data is the Iraqi Ministry of Health and the Iraqi government."

    Iraq Body Count said that its "data has been extracted from a comprehensive analysis of over 10,000 press and media reports published since March 2003. Our accounting is not complete: only an in-depth, on-the-ground census could come close to achieving that.

    "But if journalism is the first draft of history, then this dossier may claim to be an early historical analysis of the military intervention's known human costs."

    Here are some of the trends the group culled from its data:

    # 82 percent of those killed were adult males, 9 percent were adult women, 1 in 10 was under age 18;

    # Baghdad was the site of almost half of the deaths and Falluja had the second highest loss of life;

    # Figures indicate that the single largest occupational grouping of deaths were police;

    # Explosive devices figures in more than half of the civilian deaths, with air strikes causing 64 percent of such deaths;

    # 4.3 percent of civilians were killed by suicide vehicle bombs and 3.4 percent by non-suicide vehicle bombs;

    # Mortuary officials and medics "were the most frequently reported witnesses" and "police have become increasingly significant as primary sources over time."

    Tracking civilian deaths has been a challenge for Iraqi government officials in Iraq, and estimates have varied in different reports attempting to quantify death toll figures.

    The prime minister's office Tuesday said that:

    "The Iraqi Ministry of Health continually counts the number of civilians killed and wounded and their most recent figures show that 6,629 Iraqi civilians were killed and 23,838 wounded between April 2004 and April 2005.

    "Figures from the Ministry of the Interior, which include casualties from Iraq's armed forces, show that 8,175 Iraqis were killed in the 10 months between July 2004 and May 2005.

    "The root cause of Iraq's suffering is terrorism, inherited from Saddam's fascist regime and from mistaken fundamentalist ideology. The solution to it lies in developing Iraq's security forces and its political process -- and whoever wants to help Iraq should spend their efforts in supporting this.

    "Everybody knows that international forces are necessary in Iraq, on a temporary basis, for this process to take place and they will leave Iraq at a time chosen by Iraqis, not in response to terrorist pressure."

    The multinational forces' statement underscored that its operation has been "prosecuted in the most precise fashion of any conflict in the history of modern warfare. We know that the loss of any innocent lives is a tragedy, something Iraqi security forces and the multi-national force painstakingly work to avoid every single day.

    "It should not be lost on anyone that the former regime elements, terrorists and insurgents have made a practice of deliberately targeting noncombatants; of using civilians as human shields; and of operating and conducting attacks against coalition forces from within areas inhabited by civilians."

    Iraq Body Count says in the report that its number-tracking project "is, in our view, among the highest humanitarian imperatives, an imperative which has particular application to governments who conduct military interventions.

    "Assurances that military forces 'make every effort to avoid civilian casualties' are no substitute for real data-gathering and analysis, and can have no basis without it.

    "On the eve of the invasion (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair stated '(Saddam Hussein) will be responsible for many, many more deaths even in one year than we will be in any conflict.' Only data such as presented here will allow a realistic evaluation of such predictions."
    I understand that America wants to protect itself, but 25,000 people have now needlessly died when Iraq didn't support terrorism and Saudi Arabia actually gives money to terrorists. I don't understand how Bush is getting away with this. He should be in a war crimes tribunal as we speak.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    This is such credible source

    -- a London-based group comprising academics and human rights and anti-war activists -- said on Tuesday that 24,865 civilians had died between March 20, 2003 and March 19, 2005.
    I wonder how much bias they put in


    I wonder how many of these killed by the coalition "civilians" were toting ak47s



    I don't understand how Bush is getting away with this. He should be in a war crimes tribunal as we speak.

    BS saddam should be in the war crimes tribunal.

    Do you think the same about President Truman for nuking japan.


    edited for grammar
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 07-19-2005 at 19:56.
    Formerly ceasar010

  3. #3

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    LoL good job spotting the source Ceasar, see why I nominated you for most promising.

    Any group that includes anti-war activists.. not just people against the war, but activists, is certainly not objective.

    Nice try though, BP. Werent you claiming 100k had died a few months ago.. have you readjusted your numbers?

  4. #4
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Do you think the same about President Truman for nuking japan.
    Yes.

    Any group that includes anti-war activists.. not just people against the war, but activists, is certainly not objective.
    Why not?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  5. #5
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Regardless, it was a war crime.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  6. #6

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Why not?
    Conflict of interests, not to mention Iraq Body Count's past claims.

    He has a point Panzer. One could consider Pro-War Activists to be just as Bias.
    I would not believe numbers from a group that contains people who identify themselves as pro-war either.

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Ack. This is annoying. This is war and people die... get used to it and move on... nothing I can do about, nothing you can do about, nothing America can do about it, nothing the world can do about it short of just obliterating everything we have now and start fresh, but even that wouldn't stop innocents from dying now would it? If it were up to me, I would give the politicians in each country their own weapons and let them kill each other, but thats never going to happen because the world is just chalk full of idealists. 25,000 Civilians is nothing... I have to agree with Stalin on this issue "A Single Death is a tragedy; a Million Deaths is a statistic."

  8. #8
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Regardless, it was a war crime.
    Baloney. Both cities were legitimate targets. They were in fact preserved for the demonstration of the weapons. They were dropped to save hundreds of thousands of U.S. lives, as well as hundreds of thousands of Japanese. And they succeeded. It was certainly more humane than starving the islands and inflicting far more casualties.

    Truman did more to prevent war with these bombings than anything else I can think of in the 20th century. Without this demonstration of determination and power, Russia and China would not have been content with a Cold War.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  9. #9

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Yes.
    You think nuking japan was WRONG I wish we dropped earlier. My grandpa is a local leader of the dav(disabled american veterans) some of the members were pows in japan(guess how they got disabled ) hear their stories and i guarantee you will wish we dropped earlier.


    On topic


    Besides i would rather 500 Iraqi civilians die then 50 american soldiers.

    My uncles friend just got back from iraq and said something like this

    "when ever you see something that doesn't look right you shot at it... am I proud of that no, did i come back in one piece yes.


    thanks for the comment panzer
    Formerly ceasar010

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    Besides i would rather 500 Iraqi civilians die then 50 american soldiers.
    That says a lot about you.

    Fortunately, there are enough people (including conservatives) who do not share your view.

  11. #11
    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    make that 5.000.000.000 for every .005 american and I'm in agreement wiht you

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

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    MOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member Idomeneas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    You think nuking japan was WRONG I wish we dropped earlier. My grandpa is a local leader of the dav(disabled american veterans) some of the members were pows in japan(guess how they got disabled ) hear their stories and i guarantee you will wish we dropped earlier.


    On topic


    Besides i would rather 500 Iraqi civilians die then 50 american soldiers.

    My uncles friend just got back from iraq and said something like this

    "when ever you see something that doesn't look right you shot at it... am I proud of that no, did i come back in one piece yes.


    thanks for the comment panzer
    wow nice view of the world. You forgot that Iraq is those civilians home. US is the home of americans. Americans should go home maybe? or world is their home?..... well time is a wheel you know... what goes up comes down try to accept it instead of making 50+ years plans and world will be a better place

    About A bombs. Killing your enemy is may be a necesary evil. Killing your enemy and his children and their children and their children and their children IS evil. Why dont you try put yourself in their place. You know between Greece and Turkey there is an everlasting feud for centuries. They have done to us more evil than Japs could ever imagine to do to US but in no case i would support the idea to nuke them.
    μηνιν αειδε θεα Πηληιαδεω Αχιληοs ουλομενην

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Nice try though, BP. Werent you claiming 100k had died a few months ago.. have you readjusted your numbers?
    The 100k are from The Lancet which compared mortality rates from before the war and from during/after the war. These 100k "excess" deaths have not been directly linked to specific causes, such as armed violence, illness etc.

    Very recently the Geneva-based "Graduate Institute of International Studies" published a report that gives a number of 39k Iraqis that have been killed as a direct result of combat or armed violence since the U.S.-led invasion (unfortunately I could not find this report on their website).

    Do you have any numbers from sources you would consider unbiased for comparison?
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 07-19-2005 at 20:28.

  14. #14
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    The 100k are from The Lancet which compared mortality rates from before the war and from during/after the war. These 100k "excess" deaths have not been directly linked to specific causes, such as armed violence, illness etc.
    Nor was it directly linked to facts.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    25,000? That's it?
    You make Iraq seem like it's Vietnam.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  16. #16

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    I call it, population control.

  17. #17

    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Gorilla you lost me there what do you mean???
    Formerly ceasar010

  18. #18
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

    Bad US! Bad! I say get the heck out and let all the Iraqis different ethnic and religious groups come to a nice tea party and settle all their differences.

    At the point of a sword.

    25,000? Really? Wow. That is not too bad. Considering how many people have been killed by suicide bombers and 'friendly-fire' during the war itself, that speaks rather highly I think of how the Allies are doing to minimize collaterol (sp?) damage.

    Still, it could be worse. Imagine if Hussein was still in power. How many thousands would be dead in the 27 months since the war started. But would those deaths still be Bush's fault?

    Also, I wonder how many people die of natural causes in a country of what, 22 million, in 27 months.

    Azi
    Last edited by Azi Tohak; 07-19-2005 at 23:36.
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

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