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Thread: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

  1. #1
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4698251.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4692589.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4691979.stm

    Basically it shows that what has happened in Iraq is exactly what those who opposed the war stated would happen.

    Civilians killed in huge quantities and terrorism increased, meaning the risk to all of us increased.

    Why was it such a good idea again?
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  2. #2
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Why was it such a good idea again?
    *sigh* It wasn't a good idea at all...
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  3. #3

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    There is already a thread about the second story that answers your question too jag. read it
    Formerly ceasar010

  4. #4
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    yep jag, this war was a BIG mistake..

  5. #5
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    There is already a thread about the second story that answers your question too jag. read it
    Read some of it, seemed to get totally diverted by a few posters who can't handle the situation.

    Two days ago, on a SINGLE DAY in Iraq, over a 100 people were killed. That is nearly double than those who died in the London attacks. Yet you people do not believe that over the course of 2 years there hasn't been 25,000 dead? I am just surprised there hasn't been more - and there probably has been. Especially when this figure only looks at direct fatalities and not indirect ones such as the hospitals getting even worse and not being able to treat people and save them from things which even an average hospital could handle.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4696993.stm

    An article from today on the state of hospitals in Iraq.

    Need another article?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4692881.stm

    An article written by John Simpson, a hugely respected and by no means a part of any political movement, stating today how Iraq is descending into a quagmire and it is going to be very hard to stop. He has covered hundreds of conflicts, I trust his judgement.

    Another? Read about the Iraqi constitution writers who were killed today?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4696869.stm

    Iraq not only is a mess, but a dangerous out of control mess, which is creating a situation which directly endangers the lives of everyone inside and outside Iraq.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  6. #6

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    bbc is biased i couldn't find one good thing about the war on there...god for bid the media shows something good about anything
    Formerly ceasar010

  7. #7
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    bbc is biased i couldn't find one good thing about the war on there...god for bid the media shows something good about anything
    Which 'good' things were you hoping for in the war?
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  8. #8

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Lets see there are elections now the people are free from a dictator.

    Iraqis dont have to fear being thrown in an underground prison if they voice an opinion against saddam

    The eletricity is back in most of iraq

    running water is back in most of iraq

    Biological and chemical weapons and even uranium artillery shells too. have been found.

    Saddam is out of power

    saddam will stand trial for his crimes


    And more

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/index-war.htm
    Formerly ceasar010

  9. #9

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    bbc is biased

    Does anyone remenber the "Biased BBC" topics from a while back ?
    Someone posted a load of links to show just how biased it was .
    Half the links said it was biased in favour of the war and half said it was biased against the war .

    Which 'good' things were you hoping for in the war?
    Nice interesting footage of modern munitions doing amazing things with spectacular results and some really good flag waving commentary .

    editThe eletricity is back in most of iraq
    Are you sure about that one
    Try again
    Last edited by Tribesman; 07-20-2005 at 00:12.

  10. #10
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    So Cesar, you cannot argue the points raised, so you go for the old 'bias source'. Unfortunately this is the BBC, it is recognised pretty much world wide as the least bias news source in the world. They have the reputation for a reason, clear, brilliant journalism with no political angle.

    If they are so bias, show me in the articles where the bias shows? What in the articles is bias? Come on, show us.

    They are not bias, you simply do not agree / cannot accept the fact that this is reality. Wake up! More people are dead, will be dead and are suffering because of this war, in Iraq and in the western world. What the hell are we doing there?!
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  11. #11
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Lets see there are elections now the people are free from a dictator.
    For how long

    Iraqis dont have to fear being thrown in an underground prison if they voice an opinion against saddam
    But, they do have to fear terrorist


    The eletricity is back in most of iraq

    running water is back in most of iraq
    They had these beforre the war..

    Biological and chemical weapons and even uranium artillery shells too. have been found.
    You could hardly call the things found WMD's

    Saddam is out of power

    saddam will stand trial for his crimes
    Again, another dictator will likey come up as soon as US troops leave or shortly ther after.

    And more

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/index-war.htm[/QUOTE]

  12. #12
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    As i stated before attack on Iraq was a grave mistake.This a purely a tragedy.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    So Cesar, you cannot argue the points raised, so you go for the old 'bias source'. Unfortunately this is the BBC, it is recognised pretty much world wide as the least bias news source in the world. They have the reputation for a reason, clear, brilliant journalism with no political angle.

    If they are so bias, show me in the articles where the bias shows? What in the articles is bias? Come on, show us.

    They are not bias, you simply do not agree / cannot accept the fact that this is reality. Wake up! More people are dead, will be dead and are suffering because of this war, in Iraq and in the western world. What the hell are we doing there?!

    They dont show ANY of the good that has come from iraq only the bad. But i cant really blame them all the news networks seem to do this about everything
    Formerly ceasar010

  14. #14

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    They had these beforre the war.
    Atlantis , which war
    ceasar was partially correct , the electricity supply did improve overall for a while , and it has improved dramatically in Northern areas , but the figures speak for themselves , they did get generation up to 5,600MW which exceeded the pre-war(this one) figure of 4,400MW , then it dropped to 3,600MW after several bombings and stations being taken off line for refurbishment , it is back up to 4,100MW .
    All of which are way below the pre-war (first one) figures of 9,000MW .

    I wonder if it is a good time to examine his running water fact or fiction claim
    The Iraqi Ministry of Planning and Development Co-operation should be good for a laugh , or are they too biased

    They dont show ANY of the good that has come from iraq only the bad. But i cant really blame them all the news networks seem to do this about everything
    Well why not look at Governmental and International bodies reports instead of the News media , there is some good news out there , but not much .

  15. #15
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    If the US is to be blamed for the actions of cowardly terrorists who kill innocents in Iraq, you must also give credit to the US for stopping Saddam's torture and killing chambers.

    Posting the first article acts as though abuses were strictly limited to the Iraq war, and had the British Army fought in some other war, all the soldiers would have been perfect and not abused anyone.

    The second one is from a biased group- peace activists who have a vested interest in making the civilian body count seem as large as possible- and makes no mention of Saddam's mass graves, in which hundreds of thousands are buried.

    For the third one, it is foolish to think that terrorists wouldn't have attacked Britain even if they hadn't gone to war. The fanatics want to destroy all of western civilization. Appeasement, as one famous Brit said, is the tactic of throwing others to the crocodile first and hoping he gets full. It has never worked.

    Crazed Rabbit
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    If the US is to be blamed for the actions of cowardly terrorists who kill innocents in Iraq, you must also give credit to the US for stopping Saddam's torture and killing chambers.
    Yes full credit for stopping Saddams torture and killing chambers .
    Isn't it a pity that they have been replaced with the new governments torture and killing chambers Ask your government for confirmation if you think other sources might be too biased . It has all been published by them . It makes parts of Georges speech look a bit silly doesn't it.......

    "We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone. The day of your liberation is near. "


    The second one is from a biased group- peace activists who have a vested interest in making the civilian body count seem as large as possible- and makes no mention of Saddam's mass graves, in which hundreds of thousands are buried.
    Actually Rabbit they say the figure is higher , but the only include deaths that they confirm from two sources , two of the sources they use are the Iraqi government and Iraqi mortuary reports .
    It makes no mention of Saddams mass graves because it isn't a report on Saddams mass graves , so why would it mention it ?

  17. #17
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Isn't it a pity that they have been replaced with the new governments torture and killing chambers Ask your government for confirmation if you think other sources might be too biased . It has all been published by them . It makes parts of Georges speech look a bit silly doesn't it.......
    So this new gov't has torture chambers? Please. Abu Gharib wasn't even torture. Abuse, but not torture.

    Actually Rabbit they say the figure is higher , but the only include deaths that they confirm from two sources , two of the sources they use are the Iraqi government and Iraqi mortuary reports .
    It makes no mention of Saddams mass graves because it isn't a report on Saddams mass graves , so why would it mention it ?
    The figure they have is from a statistical survey that covers such a broad range (95% probability of the real number being between 8k & 200k) as to be useless, not to mention of questionable surveying.

    I mention Saddams graves because, although the terrorists have killed many people, it is less than how many Saddam killed a year. A net improvement. Except some act as though people are killed deader when the US is around trying to liberate Iraq than when 'good ole boy Saddam' is just killin' his own people.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter Ė all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  18. #18

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    So this new gov't has torture chambers? Please. Abu Gharib wasn't even torture. Abuse, but not torture.
    Did I mention Abu Gharib or any of the coilition run detention facilities ?
    No I said the new Iraqi government .

    The figure they have is from a statistical survey that covers such a broad range (95% probability of the real number being between 8k & 200k) as to be useless, not to mention of questionable surveying.
    Which survey are you talking about ? The IBC one or the one from the Lancet ?

    I mention Saddams graves because, ...
    You mention Saddams graves because it is irrelevant .

  19. #19

    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Why was it such a good idea again?
    The war in Iraq was neither a good or bad idea, it was a necessary action.

    The government of Iraq broke the ceasefire of the 1991 conflict repeatedly, causing the US/UK to continually have to use military action to stifle this misconduct. Up until the week before the war Iraq was continually firing on US/UK aircraft enforcing the UN dictates resulting from that situation.

    The government of Iraq subverted the sanctions levied on it and bribed the UN. It used the UN sanctions to make money of the starvation of its own oppressed majority.

    The government of Iraq used and pursued weapons of mass destruction against its own people and its enemies. This perusal continued after the 1991 conflict. The government created a climate in which the international intelligence community believed it had WMDs, which flew in the face of the UN and the sanctions placed against it.

    The government of Iraq supported terrorism. This support was not only in the form of supporting palestinian terrorism in the same form as what occurred in London recently, but also with more internationalist terrorists.

    The government of Iraq tried to assassinate a United States president.

    The government of Iraq, embodied by Saddam Hussein, betrayed the trust of the US/European leaders who helped him gain power with his genocides.


    In essence JAG, Saddam Hussein was a thorn in the eye of America and Europe. It goes against all we have learned to allow an aggressive dictator to remain in power, but we did. While in power during the time after 1991, Hussein did not make any attempts to clean up his act. His constant "antics" required the US to use military action against him in 1996. He played coy with weapons inspectors and created an image of his capabilities he hoped would protect him, but made him a danger to the international community. His sanction skirting could not be addressed in a bribed UN. Even after 1991 he didn't clean up his act. His continued willingness to subvert America in particular - including trying to kill a US president - could not stand after 9/11.

    Finally, he was a horrible mistake. He was put into his position to fight Islamic extremism and create a secular modern country in the middle east. This went terribly wrong when hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were butchered, and continued to be butchered and starved into the 21st century. Unlike other dictators tacitly supported by the West, Saddam was of our making and that blight could not be allowed to continue if we truly believed in what we said, ie freedom and civil rights.

    You may think the lack of WMDs and the violence isn't worth it, but if Iraq succeeds it will be. (And plenty of people in the anti-war crowd who are screaming now believed well and good he had WMDs)

    As ironic as it seems, we owed it to the Iraqi people to give them a chance at their own government.

    The question you and I both should be asking is how this war is being conducted. Are we fighting it correctly? Not if it was right for Saddam to go.

    I think anyone who looks at the situation can see that Saddam was a danger and had no intentions of changing his ways. The war was legal and right simply on the grounds that he broke the 1991 treaty continually.

    Unfinished business left unfinished only creates more problems.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    You mention Saddams graves because it is irrelevant .
    Care to explain why it is 'irrelevant? I believe I showed its relevance:

    I mention Saddams graves because, although the terrorists have killed many people, it is less than how many Saddam killed a year. A net improvement. Except some act as though people are killed deader when the US is around trying to liberate Iraq than when 'good ole boy Saddam' is just killin' his own people.
    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter Ė all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  21. #21
    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    Iraq is covered with unexploded cluster bombs for kids to take home as souvernirs

    Iraq is covered with unexploded landmines for people to walk on

    Iraq is covered with unexploded munitions for kids to play with

    Iraq is covered with DU rounds and dust to ensure cancer in later generations

    Yep war is great
    Last edited by kiwitt; 07-20-2005 at 04:29.
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  22. #22
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    But Kiwitt the oil, the oil!

    Look at how the prices have gone down and so has the gold price!
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  23. #23
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Iraq is covered with unexploded cluster bombs for kids to take home as souvernirs

    Iraq is covered with unexploded landmines for people to walk on

    Iraq is covered with unexploded munitions for kids to play with

    Iraq is covered with DU rounds and dust to ensure cancer in later generations

    Yep war is great .
    War is never great. I would like to ask how many of you here would rather live in Iraq under Saddam than the way it is now?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    War is never great. I would like to ask how many of you here would rather live in Iraq under Saddam than the way it is now?
    I personally couldnt say as i have experinced neither..


    For starters christians(and other religons) were given freedom to worship in Iraq, now anybody wearing a cross would surley be a fine target for a terrorist.

    back to the original point,

    at least they had life under sadam, now they have choas.

    And if i didnt like how i was living i would try to change things, join the local rebellion......of course if my fellow Iraqis would join me.

  25. #25
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    This war was a bloody mistake. Even the neocons now this by now, even though they would never admit. Worst thing is that we have to fight at two fronts now. Does anybody remember Bin Ladn?

  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    at least they had life under sadam, now they have choas.
    Did they? Dont dodge the wuestion. Going by what you know now would you rather live in Iraq under Saddam or live there now.

    Does anybody remember Bin Ladn?
    I dont know as hes been holed up so long. I think he is just a figure head at this point.

    Worst thing is that we have to fight at two fronts now.
    Have we gotten it down to two? My this is progress.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Did they? Dont dodge the wuestion. Going by what you know now would you rather live in Iraq under Saddam or live there now.
    I really dont think it would be fair for me to say. The question is what the Iraqies want. Many of them would probably tell you that they prefered sadam..

    Btw, i didnt dodge the question i answered that i would want either and would want to try and change it, obviously that makes me differnt from the Iraqies so it would be hard to tell what they would want, which is really the question at hand..
    Last edited by King of Atlantis; 07-20-2005 at 08:06.

  28. #28
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    I really dont think it would be fair for me to say. The question is what the Iraqies want. Many of them would probably tell you that they prefered sadam..
    What do you call many? A majority? The Bathists? I can tell you uneqivacly Id rather live there now. I ave a hope for freedom and a decent futre for my children. Whats to look forward to under Saddam. I dont think most of you can appreciate what its like to live in absloute fear of your government 24-7. All this crap about religous freedom there under Saddam. I thought thats why he and Bin Laden didnt get along. Oh thats right he only repressed most of the population.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  29. #29
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    Lets see there are elections now the people are free from a dictator.

    Iraqis dont have to fear being thrown in an underground prison if they voice an opinion against saddam
    No, Now they have fear of being thrown in an underground prison if they voice an opinion against the Bush. Or because they passed in front of a pissed of U.S officer, or a drunk one... I am sure the Iraqi people really appreciate this refreshing change of reason they can be thrown to jail for...afterall you need to have diversity in life.....

    The eletricity is back in most of iraq
    I dont know about the WHOLE of IRAQ but, as we have all seen, in Abu Graib prison electicity is up and running and used for the entertainment of the inmates...

    running water is back in most of iraq
    Which somehow explains why infant mortality ( highly correlated by the quality of water ) has skyrocketed?

    Biological and chemical weapons and even uranium artillery shells too. have been found.
    Of course Uranium Artillery Shells have been found! The U.S army is using them ffs! So what now? We attack the US? We all saw WMD's was a joke, snap out of it allready!

    ( By the way they claim they are harmless but they never approach a DU destroyed tanks without masks to prevent uranium from entering the lungs and causing cancer, Iraqi children on the other sides, do not believe in cancer and play next to those tanks unprotected )

    Saddam is out of power
    Saddam was put in power by the CIA, he is responsible for the death of thousants of people while being a US ally. The people who put him in power are equally responsible.

    saddam will stand trial for his crimes
    If Iraq was not stil a quesling dictatorship with a 'government' of no real power, Saddam's first accusation would be ' Consiring with foreign ( U.S ) agents to seize power in Iraq



    ....Some people never change...but the arguments for this war have and are getting sillier by the day....No wonder so few people think that the war wasnt a mistake today...
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Three stories which sayd it all about Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    What do you call many? A majority? The Bathists? I can tell you uneqivacly Id rather live there now. I ave a hope for freedom and a decent futre for my children. Whats to look forward to under Saddam. I dont think most of you can appreciate what its like to live in absloute fear of your government 24-7. All this crap about religous freedom there under Saddam. I thought thats why he and Bin Laden didnt get along. Oh thats right he only repressed most of the population.

    You dont think people in Iraq still live in fear? I hardly see a chance that another dictator wont be able to come to power in Iraq.


    All this crap about religous freedom there under Saddam.
    maybe you should provide evidence before you call something crap..

    I have seen a picture of a church in the middle of Baghdad with a huge cross on it(took up a whole side of the building). I sall this picture from the man who took it. He is a very respected photographer/preacher that even meet the pope in person. He said that before the war people were very eager to have their pictures taken and were extremely friendly. Sadam and bin laden dont get along cause they are opposing islamic forces, much like protestant and catholic fuedes.

    From a man that actually went deep into iraq i learned that Iraq was not a dark a place as they media made them out to be.

    I will trust a man whos been to Iraq and meet the people to know what life was like there and yes by all means it was life.

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