Stalin

[Franconicus]

Panzer and I we had a short discussion about Stalin. Was he a communist? Panzer seemed to think so. I think he is rather a fascist. What do you think?
(I know that he was head of a so called Communist Party. But Hitler was head of a so called Socialist Party - so what?)

I'd rather see this in the Monastry. But it could lead to political discussions. Well, the moderators can move it if they want to.

[Redleg]

Stalin was a Stalinist. The regime of North Korea is often called not just a communist regime but a Stalinist Regime.

Personally I think Stalin was definetly a despot who used communism for his own agenda.

[Ser Clegane]

Stalin was a fascist.

I would even go as far as to say that with regards to some important aspects the US is closer to the actual idea of Communism than the Stalinistic USSR was.

[Al Khalifah]

Stalin was a true national socialist.

[Ronin]

he was a communist.....the thing is that once in power there really isn´t much of a diference( in practical terms) between a communist and a fascist.

[Al Khalifah]

Actually, to advance my former statement, consider this:

If the definition of communism is a belief in the principles of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.
If the definition of fascism is a belief in the principles of Order, Discipline and Hierarchy.

Then surely Stalin reflected the latter far more than the former.

[bmolsson]

Stalin was nuts...

[Pindar]

Stalin was a fascist.

I would even go as far as to say that with regards to some important aspects the US is closer to the actual idea of Communism than the Stalinistic USSR was.

[Ser Clegane]

Hehe ... one aspect I am referring to would be e.g. the ownership of production assets. As a matter of fact significant parts of the US industry are indeed owned by the workers via pension funds or directly via shares that are owned by employees. I would not say that in the Stalinistic USSR the workers could really claim to own the assets. They were rather state-owned, and as (at least IMHO) in the Stalinistic USSR the State was not equivalent to the working-class (it was rather an Oligarchy), I would say that the US comes closer to the idea of the working-class owning the assets than Stalin's USSR.

Also my impression is that "smalltown-USA" were the individual citizen can (to my knowledge) influence a lot of policies is closer to the idea on "Council Communism" than the Communist Party centered approach of Stalin's USSR.

But to put you at ease - it would probably be more precise to say that Stalin's USSR was further away from the ideals of Communism that the US, that to say that the US is closer to the ideals of Communism

[Pindar]

But to put you at ease - it would probably be more precise to say that Stalin's USSR was further away from the ideals of Communism that the US, that to say that the US is closer to the ideals of Communism

So, the U.S. is a workers paradise! Cheers Comrade!

or maybe this would be better given our collectivist sentiment:

(Pindar looks for his wallet to go buy a Mao suit and a red flag.)

[Ser Clegane]

So, the U.S. is a workers paradise! Cheers Comrade!

Well ... I certainly would prefer to be a worker in today's US than in Stalin's USSR

[IliaDN]

Panzer and I we had a short discussion about Stalin. Was he a communist? Panzer seemed to think so. I think he is rather a fascist. What do you think?
(I know that he was head of a so called Communist Party. But Hitler was head of a so called Socialist Party - so what?)

I'd rather see this in the Monastry. But it could lead to political discussions. Well, the moderators can move it if they want to.

Why would you call him a fascist?
IMHO he did what had to be done.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Stalin was evil.

My grandpa was telling me about when he was in post war germany.


He saw some russian soldiers he made fun of them or something while walking by. One Russian responded back in perfect english. My grandpa went back and talked to the guy. It turned out the guys family was still in russia and unless he came back and into the military they would be shot. This happened to many people.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Stalin was evil.

My grandpa was telling me about when he was in post war germany.


He saw some russian soldiers he made fun of them or something while walking by. One Russian responded back in perfect english. My grandpa went back and talked to the guy. It turned out the guys family was still in russia and unless he came back and into the military they would be shot. This happened to many people.

You're telling me. All 4 people in my family that died after WW1-shortly after WW2 all died at the hands of Stalin. 2 transported to labour camps (1 was a decorated officer in Stalin's army as well!), 1 shot in battle, and the other shot execution style for being a German in Berlin when the Soviets came through.

[Franconicus]

Why would you call him a fascist?
IMHO he did what had to be done.

IliaDN, I just refered to Panzers definition, which is not bad:
Benevolent fascist - which includes beliefs in a strong military, aggressive foriegn policy, traditionalism, nationalism, anti-communism/socialism, government-industry cooperation, a strong role for the military in the government and does not include beliefs in genocide, concentration camps, political assassinations and all those nasty habits that gave fascism such a bad name in the 30s.
I think Stalin was everything.

How do you call him?

[IliaDN]

IliaDN, I just refered to Panzers definition, which is not bad:
Benevolent fascist - which includes beliefs in a strong military, aggressive foriegn policy, traditionalism, nationalism, anti-communism/socialism, government-industry cooperation, a strong role for the military in the government and does not include beliefs in genocide, concentration camps, political assassinations and all those nasty habits that gave fascism such a bad name in the 30s.
I think Stalin was everything.

How do you call him?

1.Belief in strong military - how many strong countries without such belief do you know?
2.Traditionalism - don't UK have it as well?
3.Other points you mentioned are common for any dictatorship (except only anti-communism/socialism ).

[Red Harvest]

1.Belief in strong military - how many strong countries without such belief do you know?

The majority of countries have only a rather modest military...as long as there are totalitarian regimes out there, the democracies and republics are going to maintain larger armies than they would necessarily like to have.

While Stalin may have "believed" in a strong military, his purges weakened it. And locking up talented aircraft designers and the like hardly contributed to a strong military.

Some of the reviews of the deaths associated with Stalin give him credit for at least half the USSR's war dead...since he was as much responsible for it as Hitler.

He was tenacious in trying to preserve his nation for himself after it was attacked, that I can give him credit for. However, he also used his civilians as a "meat shield" (borrowing TW games terminology.)

[IliaDN]

The majority of countries have only a rather modest military...as long as there are totalitarian regimes out there, the democracies and republics are going to maintain larger armies than they would necessarily like to have.

While Stalin may have "believed" in a strong military, his purges weakened it. And locking up talented aircraft designers and the like hardly contributed to a strong military.

Some of the reviews of the deaths associated with Stalin give him credit for at least half the USSR's war dead...since he was as much responsible for it as Hitler.

He was tenacious in trying to preserve his nation for himself after it was attacked, that I can give him credit for. However, he also used his civilians as a "meat shield" (borrowing TW games terminology.)

How is it connected to the topic?
Any arguments except this one?

[Big_John]

from the arguments given in this thread alone.. i vote fascicommunist!!!