Stalin

[IliaDN]

Stalin was most similar to a fascist, though he definately brought his own twist to it.

He definately was not a good guy and was not good for Russia, how can killing off the officer class be good? Especially with an expansionist Germany on your borders?

It was done to mantain order.

[Franconicus]

This thread is getting better than supposed!

IliaDn, can you explain your picture of Stalin?

[IliaDN]

Ok, here is a picture:
I don't approve all of his actions ( there were a lot of not clever things done either by him or by his name ( e.g. such as restricting different branches of science ).
But as for his stict regime - it was necessary, because the country didn't fully heal after the civil war and the risk of the second revolution was high + many foreign countries were at rather bad relations with the USSR ...
SO in general he was that strong hand which was needed to mantain country in stability.

[Franconicus]

I see what you mean.
I do not want to compare him with Hitler but many people in Germany might have used the same words about him in 1939. Very interesting!

[IliaDN]

I see what you mean.
I do not want to compare him with Hitler but many people in Germany might have used the same words about him in 1939. Very interesting!

You know maybe it is too hard to say if the person was good for country and nation or not.
As for Stalin's regime our country needed global changes not to roll down to some 3 world countries ... and the price was paid ........

[scooter_the_shooter]

was 40 million people worth it??? in your opinion??

[IliaDN]

was 40 million people worth it??? in your opinion??

Tell me how did you get this number.

[Meneldil]

Well, I'm don't want to sound insulting to IliaDN, but from what I hear and read in the news, Russia is quite a crappy country right now. A lot of people think that what Stalin and his fellows have done was 'the best thing to do', and that everything was better back in USSR (no unemployement, no guys like khodorkovski, no terrorism).
As a westerner, I can't really understand how the Russians still like someone who appears to have crippled their country, killed millions of people, and whose only achievement was to turn Russia into the 2nd biggest military power and to invade a lot of other countries that became bloody communist dictatorship.

That's exactly what you hear when you listen to some neo-nazis when they speak about Hitler : "Germany was weak, he achieved to turn it into the most powerful country in Europe and deserves some respect. The Holocaust ? It was needed/It has been invented by the jews and the US".

[IliaDN]

Well, I'm don't want to sound insulting to IliaDN, but from what I hear and read in the news, Russia is quite a crappy country right now. A lot of people think that what Stalin and his fellows have done was 'the best thing to do', and that everything was better back in USSR (no unemployement, no guys like khodorkovski, no terrorism).
As a westerner, I can't really understand how the Russians still like someone who appears to have crippled their country, killed millions of people, and whose only achievement was to turn Russia into the 2nd biggest military power and to invade a lot of other countries that became bloody communist dictatorship.

That's exactly what you hear when you listen to some neo-nazis when they speak about Hitler : "Germany was weak, he achieved to turn it into the most powerful country in Europe and deserves some respect. The Holocaust ? It was needed/It has been invented by the jews and the US".

1. No offense taken.
2. It was the price, but not all those millions were inncents.
3. He did much more then you have mentioned.
4. Nowadays people just want order, and if you ask me at least half of our goverment must be shot or send to build roads in Syberia.

[Meneldil]

Well, I'm not sure that a leader has to kill millions of people to turn a bacward country into a world military/economic power, but then, I've never ruled any country (hopefully).
I don't really see how the Tatars, the Volga Germans, the Poles killed at Katyn, the Ukrenians killed between 1918 and 1922 were guilty of anything, and for that matter, more guilty than the Jews killed by Hitler.

I think Stalin was the bloodiest man that ever existed on earth, and I probably won't change my mind on this.

It is generally agreed by historians that if famines, prison and labor camp mortality, and state terrorism (deportations and political purges) are taken into account, Stalin and his colleagues were directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian governments, most estimates put the figure between 8 and 20 million. Comparison of the 1926–37 census results suggests 5–10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931–34. The 1926 census shows the population of the Soviet Union at 147 million and in 1937 another census found a population of between 162 and 163 million. This was 14 million less than the projected population value and was suppressed as a "wrecker's census" with the census takers severely punished. A census was taken again in 1939, but its published figure of 170 million has been generally attributed directly to the decision of Stalin[7] (see also Demographics of the Soviet Union). Note that the figure of 14 million does not have to imply 14 million additional deaths, since as many as 3 million may be births that never took place due to reduced fertility and choice.

Since "the margin of error" with regard to the number of Stalin's victims is virtually impossible to narrow down to a universally accepted figure, various historians have come up with extremely varying numbers of Stalinist terror victims.

Other useful link : http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

[Franconicus]

I once read the book of Falin, I think he was advisor of Gorbatschow. It was about the USSR in WW2. It was a completley different view from what I have learned. Very interesting. I do not agree with everything he sadi but at least it shows that the things may not always be the way we in the west think they are.

[Red Harvest]

It was done to mantain order.

That's a very scary thought...

One could propose killing off or incarcerating all teenagers to accomplish the same thing. That wouldn't actually be too far from Stalin's approach.

Stalin was an absolute tyrant. His was a system all about maintaining control for STALIN, not for the people. Stalinism is the best description. He killed and incarcerated many of the USSR's best and brightest, because they were a threat to HIM, not ot the state.

He killed off tens of millions in purges and made the USSR incredibly weak militarily by purging the officer corps. He created the conditions that allowed Russia to be overrun by the Nazis, even though that wasn't his intent.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Stalinism is an offshoot of Communism. Therefore, Stalin was a Communist.
Trotskyism is Stalinism with a different name. So is Leninism and Marxism.