Stalin

I see what you mean.
I do not want to compare him with Hitler but many people in Germany might have used the same words about him in 1939. Very interesting!

Originally Posted by Franconicus

I see what you mean.
I do not want to compare him with Hitler but many people in Germany might have used the same words about him in 1939. Very interesting!

You know maybe it is too hard to say if the person was good for country and nation or not.
As for Stalin's regime our country needed global changes not to roll down to some 3 world countries ... and the price was paid ........

was 40 million people worth it??? in your opinion??

Originally Posted by ceasar010

was 40 million people worth it??? in your opinion??

Tell me how did you get this number.

Well, I'm don't want to sound insulting to IliaDN, but from what I hear and read in the news, Russia is quite a crappy country right now. A lot of people think that what Stalin and his fellows have done was 'the best thing to do', and that everything was better back in USSR (no unemployement, no guys like khodorkovski, no terrorism).
As a westerner, I can't really understand how the Russians still like someone who appears to have crippled their country, killed millions of people, and whose only achievement was to turn Russia into the 2nd biggest military power and to invade a lot of other countries that became bloody communist dictatorship.

That's exactly what you hear when you listen to some neo-nazis when they speak about Hitler : "Germany was weak, he achieved to turn it into the most powerful country in Europe and deserves some respect. The Holocaust ? It was needed/It has been invented by the jews and the US".

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Well, I'm don't want to sound insulting to IliaDN, but from what I hear and read in the news, Russia is quite a crappy country right now. A lot of people think that what Stalin and his fellows have done was 'the best thing to do', and that everything was better back in USSR (no unemployement, no guys like khodorkovski, no terrorism).
As a westerner, I can't really understand how the Russians still like someone who appears to have crippled their country, killed millions of people, and whose only achievement was to turn Russia into the 2nd biggest military power and to invade a lot of other countries that became bloody communist dictatorship.

That's exactly what you hear when you listen to some neo-nazis when they speak about Hitler : "Germany was weak, he achieved to turn it into the most powerful country in Europe and deserves some respect. The Holocaust ? It was needed/It has been invented by the jews and the US".

1. No offense taken.
2. It was the price, but not all those millions were inncents.
3. He did much more then you have mentioned.
4. Nowadays people just want order, and if you ask me at least half of our goverment must be shot or send to build roads in Syberia.

Well, I'm not sure that a leader has to kill millions of people to turn a bacward country into a world military/economic power, but then, I've never ruled any country (hopefully).
I don't really see how the Tatars, the Volga Germans, the Poles killed at Katyn, the Ukrenians killed between 1918 and 1922 were guilty of anything, and for that matter, more guilty than the Jews killed by Hitler.

I think Stalin was the bloodiest man that ever existed on earth, and I probably won't change my mind on this.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

It is generally agreed by historians that if famines, prison and labor camp mortality, and state terrorism (deportations and political purges) are taken into account, Stalin and his colleagues were directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions. How many millions died under Stalin is greatly disputed. Although no official figures have been released by the Soviet or Russian governments, most estimates put the figure between 8 and 20 million. Comparison of the 1926–37 census results suggests 5–10 million deaths in excess of what would be normal in the period, mostly through famine in 1931–34. The 1926 census shows the population of the Soviet Union at 147 million and in 1937 another census found a population of between 162 and 163 million. This was 14 million less than the projected population value and was suppressed as a "wrecker's census" with the census takers severely punished. A census was taken again in 1939, but its published figure of 170 million has been generally attributed directly to the decision of Stalin[7] (see also Demographics of the Soviet Union). Note that the figure of 14 million does not have to imply 14 million additional deaths, since as many as 3 million may be births that never took place due to reduced fertility and choice.

Since "the margin of error" with regard to the number of Stalin's victims is virtually impossible to narrow down to a universally accepted figure, various historians have come up with extremely varying numbers of Stalinist terror victims.

Other useful link : http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

Originally Posted by Meneldil

the Ukrenians killed between 1918 and 1922 were guilty of anything, and for that matter, more guilty than the Jews killed by Hitler.

Those dates are civil war, not rule of Stalin.

He was maybe the most evil man to ever walk the earth even surpassing Hitler. Its funny two men and nations fought eachother so hard when in actuality they were like two peas in a pod.

Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Its funny two men and nations fought eachother so hard when in actuality they were like two peas in a pod.

We are probably fortunate that they did - imagine the world if they really had joined forces and tried to divide up the world between them

Thanks bmolsson. I agree with you.

And if I could find the source again, I would give it.

I remember reading that the last of the Romanovs was turning Russia from a joke into a powerhouse. Between 1900 and 1914 Russia had a huge industrial turn-around along with massively increasing literacy. If only I could find the source! Romanov Russia was not a backwoods joke of a country ruled by an inept despot at the start of the 20th century.

But then...the Czar stepped in it. WWI has gutted eastern europe to this day. Civil war and then Communism showed up and gutted the country.

Azi

Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

Thanks bmolsson. I agree with you.

And if I could find the source again, I would give it.

I remember reading that the last of the Romanovs was turning Russia from a joke into a powerhouse. Between 1900 and 1914 Russia had a huge industrial turn-around along with massively increasing literacy. If only I could find the source! Romanov Russia was not a backwoods joke of a country ruled by an inept despot at the start of the 20th century.

But then...the Czar stepped in it. WWI has gutted eastern europe to this day. Civil war and then Communism showed up and gutted the country.

Azi

You are forgetting about shameful war with Japan in 1905.
About factories and industries:
they were good in western part of country, some central parts, but in general they were not ( for such a big empire )
Communications between regions were awful.

I voted i dont care.I know many Russians consider him as hero.Im Finnish and i consider him as an monster.Only good thing i can say about Josif Vissarionovits Dzugasvili is that he took over an country of musiks and transformed it to country of labourers.In short he created the industrial revolution in Soviet Union.

Well he sure was alot of things, but no true communist. I know a few communists and they all view Stalin as the main destroyer of communism at that time.
If you ask me Russia was one of the worst nations to start the communist world revolution. Many ive talk to, even rightwingers all agree that western europe would have been a more succesfull place to turn into a communist nation.

but anyway, Stalin was a Stalinist, a corrupt form of communism wich is far from the original idea.

Gotta go with Redleg on this one. Stalin was definitely a Stalinist. Come on folks, how obvious could that one be?

It's just like Lou Gehrig dieing of Lou Gehrig's Disease. How the hell did his doctors not see that one coming?

Originally Posted by Goofball

Gotta go with Redleg on this one. Stalin was definitely a Stalinist. Come on folks, how obvious could that one be?

It's just like Lou Gehrig dieing of Lou Gehrig's Disease. How the hell did his doctors not see that one coming?

You can lead a horse to water but you can not always make them drink.

stalin was a mix between communist and fascist. he definitly is one of the cruellest men that ever wandered the world

I once read the book of Falin, I think he was advisor of Gorbatschow. It was about the USSR in WW2. It was a completley different view from what I have learned. Very interesting. I do not agree with everything he sadi but at least it shows that the things may not always be the way we in the west think they are.

edit i just checked it was 20 million