Open Letter

[Stefan the Berserker]

Dear Forum Members,

You might have recognised that the Thread "Socialist International", which was dedicted to Socialdemocrathy, has been closed. The reason is as follows:

This is an open forum for open discussion - threads that try to exclude other patrons in an aggressive manner are not tolerated here.

I reacted very emotionally on the post of the User "Panzerjaeger" who does officially admit to be a Facist, as you can also confirm by following that link.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=50198

Benevolent fascist - which includes beliefs in a strong military, aggressive foriegn policy, traditionalism, nationalism, anti-communism/socialism, government-industry cooperation, a strong role for the military in the government and does not include beliefs in genocide, concentration camps, political assassinations and all those nasty habits that gave fascism such a bad name in the 30s.

The Reasons of my emotional Tensions are very deep. Two of my Grand-Grandfathers have been assasinated during the Dictatorship of the NSDAP, for beeing Members of democrathic Partys. Additionally their Memberships were also made reasons of further Punishment of my Family, absent from the losses caused by the second Worldwar.

The Forumrules protect free speech. But in the Case of Facism I must express that tolerance is a wrong treadment. It allows those people to survive and spread their murderus Ideas in a democrathic society. Facism and Nationalsocialism are beeing outlawed as Criminal and Anti-Constitutional in Germany, further the political parties "Nationaldemocrathic Party of Germany" and "German peoples Union" are beeing observed by the Statesecurity.

To keep the democrathic society save from Facism, there can not be tolerance for these "Viewpoints". However, the Rules force me to tolerate the Person and its Ideological View on the Forum. I do not.

To avoid further violation of the Forumrules I'll no longer answer to threads which contain posts of Panzerjaeger and put him on my Ignorelist. This is my personal freedom and the best Solution absent of beeing forced to deal with him.

Further I want to express that the Forumrules are beeing weak in this Case. I suppose to create the right to form political oriented Usergroups offically, as a further development of for example the "Conservative Club" which obtain their own stickyfied and, if possible, passwordprotected thread in the Backroom or protected subforums. Thus would enable Patrons of the same political Viewpoint to discuss internally and also allow common acitivity of those.

I suggest to create following stickiyfied threads or Subforums of the Backroom:

- Conservative Club (stickyfied)
- Liberal Forum
- Socialist International
- Nationalist Congress

With Socialist Regards,

St.Holz

[Ser Clegane]

Moved to Watchtower as this is mainly about forum policies.

I will post my take on this later, as I am currently busy with some RL work.

[Stefan the Berserker]

However, the possebility for Forum Members to either post in a subforum of the same Ideological Background or in the Backroom reduces direct confrontation of Patrons. It makes it more Confident to seperate Flaming-Candidates from each other.

[Al Khalifah]

But by seperating everyone into groups where they can only communicate with people who have the same belief system that they do, you will not get any serious debate. People will just agree with each other which will be pointless and will lead to group-think policy formations.
In short, such actions would only radicalise people, since they would never encounter an opposing point of view to their own.

[Redleg]

However, the possebility for Forum Members to either post in a subforum of the same Ideological Background or in the Backroom reduces direct confrontation of Patrons. It makes it more Confident to seperate Flaming-Candidates from each other.

If you want that - form your own internet based forum. What the board's admins have developed in this site works just fine. People share their idea's, and express themselves. Sometimes in doing so the conservation gets heated and a few harsh words are exchanged - the moderators for the most part do a decent job on keeping the Backroom fairily cleaned up.

There are some threads I read and never post in because I do not like the direction of the discussion or the content of the discussion - I have discovered that over the last several years its best for me to focus on only two-four politicial threads at anyone times so I don't make a mistake of intermixing the discussions of one thread into another.

I have so individuals that I am caustic to - because that is the way they post, some individuals while we have conflicting views - very rarely break down into "flame" discussion direct at each other.

I think personally - based upon my own experiences in the .Org - that most of the problem you are having can be resolved by moderating your own posting style and subject matter.

Write your response, read your response, edit your response, re-read your response, Post your response - read your response - and then edit again it it doesnt flow or make sense.

Personal attacks directed at an individual because you do not agree with their thought process or ideological views are against the forum rules - and to violate them is no-one fault but your own - since this is a message board - you have plently of time to write, think, and then edit your response before posting.

However by all means attack the idea, attack the subject, be harsh, be criticial, prepare to defend your ideas, defend your philisophy - all without attacking the individual.

Seperate forums with passwords is not the way to go. Just like the other little sub threads titled Clubs are useful for like minded discussion - its more useful to leave them open for everyone to read and post - because it stimulates the discussion and helps to insure people will actually think about what the different views might be on a subject.

Going around only reading views and reports that fit within your expectations and views happens to fall in line with the Thomas Jefferson quote that you see in my sig.

[Ser Clegane]

OK - some comments from my side.

1) First of all I consider it rather poor style to pillory another patron whose political views you disagree with in the way you did it in the closed Backroom thread and here.
PJ clearly stated that he does not believe in fascism that includes e.g., political assassinations - if you do not believe that statement that is conjecture from your side
If you choose not to engage in discussions with certain patrons, just quit doing so - no need to start a proclamation thread.
I am sure we also have patrons whose families suffered from dictatorial communist states - I do not think that gives them the right to make other patrons who support communist ideas accountable for that.

2) I am vehemently opposing the idea of creating password-protected subforums/threads for each political group that believes that it deserves one.
If you feel the urge to form a political forum for like-minded people - by all means do so, but I do not see why the org should be the place for it.
Most people enjoy the Backroom for its variety of opinions and nationalities - it's bad enough that we seem to have some "political camps" and label people as "liberals" or "conservatives" - I see no merit in cementing such a division into political camps.

[Stefan the Berserker]

OK - some comments from my side.

1) First of all I consider it rather poor style to pillory another patron whose political views you disagree with in the way you did it in the closed Backroom thread and here.
PJ clearly stated that he does not believe in fascism that includes e.g., political assassinations - if you do not believe that statement that is conjecture from your side
If you choose not to engage in discussions with certain patrons, just quit doing so - no need to start a proclamation thread.
I am sure we also have patrons whose families suffered from dictatorial communist states - I do not think that gives them the right to make other patrons who support communist ideas accountable for that.

The argumention is very poor. You defend the allowance of posting Extremist Viewpoints, irrelevant wheter they are Communist or Facist, and abolish makeing those people responsible for these Views.

Diffrently to you I prefer to act conseqently with a Sense of responsibility. I don't tolerate these outlawed Ideologies and their defense by you is very questionable.

Secondly I repeat that the Forumrules are weak and contain no abolishment of spreading Extremist Views, which is normally standard on Forums.

Excluding people because of their views is so... fascist.

Diesen Vergleich fasse ich als Beleidigung auf. Vielleicht solltest du vor derartig chauvinistischen Äußerungen einmal nachdenken.

[A.Saturnus]

Excluding people because of their views is so... fascist. We had several people here advocating communism. If that is allowed, fascism should be allowed too.
Generally, creating subdivisions for certain political views is a bad idea. This is a game forum in the end, the political discussions are just an extra bit. Back when the first clubs were created, the moderators announced that they remain open only under the condition that they don`t cause any problems and may be closed at any moment when the moderators see fit. I`d advise you to remember that and don`t abuse Ser`s plentyful patience.

[The Wizard]

This only shows that you have misconceptions about Fascism. It's not evil--just like communism isn't evil. What's evil are the men who have butchered both systems to create something that is evil.

I don't believe Panzer advocated the killing of jews, I just think he advocates the ideals originally expressed in Fascism, such as extreme Nationalism, and a Government run by the needs of Businesses. None of which is necesarrily criminal by itself.

Oh yes it is. Extremism is the blinding of one's own senses, in a pure sacrifice of one's own capability of thought to fear. Extremism therefore, can only lead to something bad. Be that left or right. Communism or fascism.



~Wiz

[IliaDN]

Dear Forum Members,

You might have recognised that the Thread "Socialist International", which was dedicted to Socialdemocrathy, has been closed. The reason is as follows:



I reacted very emotionally on the post of the User "Panzerjaeger" who does officially admit to be a Facist, as you can also confirm by following that link.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=50198



The Reasons of my emotional Tensions are very deep. Two of my Grand-Grandfathers have been assasinated during the Dictatorship of the NSDAP, for beeing Members of democrathic Partys. Additionally their Memberships were also made reasons of further Punishment of my Family, absent from the losses caused by the second Worldwar.

The Forumrules protect free speech. But in the Case of Facism I must express that tolerance is a wrong treadment. It allows those people to survive and spread their murderus Ideas in a democrathic society. Facism and Nationalsocialism are beeing outlawed as Criminal and Anti-Constitutional in Germany, further the political parties "Nationaldemocrathic Party of Germany" and "German peoples Union" are beeing observed by the Statesecurity.

To keep the democrathic society save from Facism, there can not be tolerance for these "Viewpoints". However, the Rules force me to tolerate the Person and its Ideological View on the Forum. I do not.

To avoid further violation of the Forumrules I'll no longer answer to threads which contain posts of Panzerjaeger and put him on my Ignorelist. This is my personal freedom and the best Solution absent of beeing forced to deal with him.

Further I want to express that the Forumrules are beeing weak in this Case. I suppose to create the right to form political oriented Usergroups offically, as a further development of for example the "Conservative Club" which obtain their own stickyfied and, if possible, passwordprotected thread in the Backroom or protected subforums. Thus would enable Patrons of the same political Viewpoint to discuss internally and also allow common acitivity of those.

I suggest to create following stickiyfied threads or Subforums of the Backroom:

- Conservative Club (stickyfied)
- Liberal Forum
- Socialist International
- Nationalist Congress

With Socialist Regards,

St.Holz

Lefties are not socialists enough to be stickied?

[King Henry V]

To avoid further violation of the Forumrules I'll no longer answer to threads which contain posts of Panzerjaeger and put him on my Ignorelist. This is my personal freedom and the best Solution absent of beeing forced to deal with him.

If we all add the people whose political beliefs we disagree to the ignore list, then there won't be any debate at all.

[Franconicus]

Facism and Nationalsocialism are beeing outlawed as Criminal and Anti-Constitutional in Germany, further the political parties "Nationaldemocrathic Party of Germany" and "German peoples Union" are beeing observed by the Statesecurity.

In fact they are not. In Germany people are free to say that they are fascists or Nazis as well as communists, stalinists or whatever. There are some limitaions, however. A party is forbidden if it is against the constitution. This is a rule to protect our democracy. From the experience of the 30ies this is necessary.
It is forbidden to deny the holocaust, to use fascistic symbols of the Nazis, sedition, insults or calls for criminal acts.
I think the forum rules cover all this. If not we may add this.

I agree that fascism is bad and has to be fought. I always thought that discussion is the best way to do this.
Panzer is not evil. I still hope he will join us some day!

no passeran