Death and Heaven

[Colovion]

Death is frightening because there is no way someone can die and them come back and tell everyone what happened so those who are going to die can expect what to occur. It's something which is unexpected, harsh and forces one to view their lives in a realistic aspect that at one point in life you will no longer be who you once were - you will end.

That's where Heaven comes in; the belief that the end is not the end - but merely a passing point into another existance, whether heaven or another life.

There are many beliefs in heaven. Usually it's depicted, in one way or the other, as an eternal resting place for the soul (mind?). It includes all you could want and more; bliss, euphoria.

What are your thoughts on what Heaven is? Or if there is a heaven and why or why not?

Then there is also the belief in reincarnation where there isn't so much any resting place but more of a belief in continual rebirth of the energy in yourself into another entity. So in this case Heaven is to continue Survival and accept that life is a cycle and that after death you have new life and continue to live.

Forgive me if this has been extrapolated upon previously.

[Byzantine Prince]

The subject of afterlife and death is a tricky one. On one hand it's frightening that your existence might completely end when you die.

On the other it's very frightening that you may live for ever and ever and ever. It would be extremely tedious especially if you had memory. So in this case no afterlife seems more apealing.

I don't know, either way it's either gonna suck or not. There's no way to be happy about it even if we knew the answer.

[Al Khalifah]

Death: It's the only place or experience on Earth with no survivors and no one to come back and tell the tale.
Science can answer many questions, but there's one it will never be able to answer - what happens when we die...

[Byzantine Prince]

The answer is quite obvious if you are not religious. The scientific answer is that when you die your brain and therefore your personality, memories, and intelligence don't exist anymore. Whether your spirit lives on or not is irrelevent because you have lost everything that makes you feel like your self.

[Al Khalifah]

But the brain remains active for long periods after death. There is simply too much electrical charge within the central nervous system to instantly disipate. Therefore it is perfectly feasible that 'dead' people are still capable of thought.

[Big_John]

i don't believe in heaven or other forms of life after death because i've never found cause to believe there is anything metaphysical about myself or other humans.

[Quietus]

oh Quietus, you can't prove there's no heaven. Sure there might not be an eternal "resting place" but... new thread

I assume this is the new thread you speak of.

There's no proof, evidence, support of any 'heaven', that's the proof.

How do you disprove something that doesn't exist in the first place?

Theoretically, if I live forever, I can name an infinite number of things that doesn't exist. All I have to do compound letters ad infinitum.

Wuuk Waah Wuuk.
Waak Wuuh Waak.
Etc etc.

How do you disprove Wuuk Waah Wuuk doesn't exist? Well, there's no proof, evidence or support it does exist!

The same thing goes for 'heaven'.

I've used Leprechauns as an example in a past thread. Do you believe in Leprechauns? How do you disprove Leprechauns?

As for an eternal resting place, your form just breaks apart. All you are is matter and energy, same as everything around you.

You use the same molecules as everyone and everything. All you preserve is your form. You are not the same as the person the day you were born or conceived. Your body continually replaces molecules with foods you eat.

All you keep is the form which was directed essentially by your dna. Life is just a balance between breaking and building.

Your body will break apart, it's the law of physics, it's called Entropy. Your body will try to reverse this process and keep your form using energy and materials from food. (Energy essentially from the Sun).

However, no matter how efficient your body is, Entropy wins eventually and you die. How do organisms combat this? We evolved to reproduce.

Currently, we've evolved enough to extend average life expectancy to around 80 years.

[Don Corleone]

I believe in heaven, but I dont' think it's a golfer's paradise where beer is free, you get to play Augusta every day and you get a hooter's girl for a caddy, much as I'd like it to be that way.

I envision heaven as a return of the individual to the collective. Think of a drop of water finding it's way through ground water runoff, a stream, a river, a bay and finally back out to the ocean... .you cease to matter as an individual but you become something much larger then you envisioned.

I also believe in Hell. I think our actions here render us more or less ready to re-collect. I don't think of Hell as a lake of fire and flame whips. I more see it as looking through a window at a party of all your best friends and family. Because of your own spite, you refused the invitiation, and now you cannot get in. To me, Hell is being alone without hope of ever being in communion with your fellow man again.

[Kagemusha]

I believe in fate.We have an saying in my country that when someone dies.He or She came back to the light.I personally think that death is the end as we know it.but is not the ultimate end.We arejust so sefcented that we dot see it,

[JimBob]

Don you sound like a Hindu Jew, if there's such a thing.
My take: We die, deal with it, your consience may or may nor carry over to some new existance, the key is that right now you are alive and have feelings, thoughts and emotions. Fullfil them. Heavan is like after Thanksgiving (or the appropriate feast day in your country), after you full, content, a bit sleepy, surrounded by friends and family. Hell is being on your deathbed and saying 'if only'

[Samurai Waki]

I personally don't know (HI FROM HAVANA...CAPITAL OF THE COMMUNIST WEST!) *ahem* anyway... I don't know about death, I don't dwell on it, and I am not afraid of it... certainly I don't invite it, but I accept it. Many of you have interesting viewpoints... wether they are true or not really doesn't matter. My Personal Belief: Earth is essentially heaven and hell; Life is our crucible, and when we die we become a collective, we share our stories, give advice... see where we went wrong, basically a long time of reflection... certainly whatever happens after that I am not sure. But it would make me happy to have a long discussion with o' lets say Hitler or Richard the Lionheart, he can tell me his stories, what he felt, what he did in his life that nobody knows about, and because this is essentially the great gathering grounds of spirits, however, because we do not "exist" anymore, by gones are by gones... in death, we do not care about the physical realm anymore.

[King of Atlantis]

I've used Leprechauns as an example in a past thread. Do you believe in Leprechauns? How do you disprove Leprechauns?

Well, to disprove leprechauns you would have to prove they cant be alive. You might ask yourself a few questions.

-For instance you might say where are they? They have to be somewhere but, where?

-How did they come into being? Have they just been here since the beginning unlike the rest of creation?

-Where are their effects? Why can't we see what they have done.

You want to apply these questions to religion, but religion answers these pretty well.

-Where is God? he is metaphysical therefore you obviously couldnt just see him.

-How did he come into being? This is a hard question, but they same can be said about the universe. Even the big bang theory can explain the first spark.

-Effects? Well considering God has obviously given us free will his effects are hare to see.

Therefore you cant just outright ask wheres the proof cause there are anwsers to where the proof is though it still doesnt help you to find it.

I'll ask you this. When you look at a building do you assume it was built by a builder. Surely the building is proof that there had to be a builder. The same can be said of creation.

[Colovion]

There's no proof, evidence, support of any 'heaven', that's the proof.

I don't live to structure my life around proof entire. My mind accepts things more readily which have proof attached to them but I'm not going to disregard something which has no concrete proof simply because of the lack of it. Proof is simply the known evidence provided in a logical fashion - simply because there isn't evidence to support a claim doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I enjoy believing that there are things that exist which are unable to be proven because I'm open to new ideas and realities which I haven't explored yet. At one time you would be called a mad-man for assuming that there was an entire continent seperating Europe and Asia entire (North America) because there was no proof of such a claim. Your argument shows that man is a constant Doubting Thomas; needing to view it and see it tangibly to really believe in it. My mind is simply not as rigidly empirical as yours.

[Quietus]

Well, to disprove leprechauns you would have to prove they cant be alive. You might ask yourself a few questions.

-For instance you might say where are they? They have to be somewhere but, where?

-How did they come into being? Have they just been here since the beginning unlike the rest of creation?

-Where are their effects? Why can't we see what they have done.

Ok, so do you believe in leprechauns or not? If not, then where's your proof?

You want to apply these questions to religion, but religion answers these pretty well.

-Where is God? he is metaphysical therefore you obviously couldnt just see him.

But the entire universe is physical. It follows the laws of physics. There's no laws of metaphysics. How does a purportedly metaphysical 'god' communicate with billions of believers who are physical....?

If a 'god' wants to move a physical ball. He needs to use physical means or force. The same way with you, because you are physical.

Lastly, define metaphysics as best as you can.

-How did he come into being? This is a hard question, but they same can be said about the universe. Even the big bang theory can explain the first spark.

See, right there you assumed it is a 'god'. AND you called god, "he". So god has a sex now, or is it that humans patterned the image of god from himself....? That tells me a lot!!

-Effects? Well considering God has obviously given us free will his effects are hare to see.

If you remove your brain, you won't have 'free will' at all. Again, this an assumption of a 'god'.

What's your take on Evolution? Is it random? (Yes, it is random). You can't plan something random. That's like saying, Lottery numbers are planned.

You saying "god given us", meant he planned us all along. There's no plan at all.

Therefore you cant just outright ask wheres the proof cause there are anwsers to where the proof is though it still doesnt help you to find it.

Well, where did you find the answers if you have no proof?

I'll ask you this. When you look at a building do you assume it was built by a builder. Surely the building is proof that there had to be a builder. The same can be said of creation.

Where did the 'builder' come from? Another builder? Where did that another builder come from?

If god is omnipotent, then god's builder must be more omnipotent? So on and so forth?

[Quietus]

At one time you would be called a mad-man for assuming that there was an entire continent seperating Europe and Asia entire (North America) because there was no proof of such a claim. Your argument shows that man is a constant Doubting Thomas; needing to view it and see it tangibly to really believe in it. My mind is simply not as rigidly empirical as yours.

That's a physical world, when it comes to god, people use the 'metaphysical' word and world.

[King of Atlantis]

Ok, so do you believe in leprechauns or not? If not, then where's your proof?

No beacause.
-there is no evidence of their habitat
-no evelution link to them
-they have left no mark

But the entire universe is physical. It follows the laws of physics. There's no laws of metaphysics. How does a purportedly metaphysical 'god' communicate with billions of believers who are physical....?

The entire physical world is physical.

If a 'god' wants to move a physical ball. He needs to use physical means or force. The same way with you, because you are physical.

God is in everything, thus he could move part of himself easy.

Lastly, define metaphysics as best as you can.

i admit im probably not the best source of metaphysics

See, right there you assumed it is a 'god'. AND you called god, "he". So god has a sex now, or is it that humans patterned the image of god from himself....? That tells me a lot!!

Im christian so i am going to call god God. That is what i believe in. As for calling God he. In english male is the nuetral gender. We are mankind, if the was a group of guys and girls i could say hey guys. God doesnt have gendar, but it doesnt feel right to call god it, therefore "he" works best.

If you remove your brain, you won't have 'free will' at all. Again, this an assumption of a 'god'.

I dont see your logic. If i removed m brain i would die. That doesnt change the fact that God lets us make our own desecions, free will.

What's your take on Evolution? Is it random? (Yes, it is random). You can't plan something random. That's like saying, Lottery numbers are planned.

Lets assume God is real here, dont you think the creater of the universe could set up evolution as he pleased

You saying "god given us", meant he planned us all along. There's no plan at all.

Well, where did you find the answers if you have no proof?

I didnt come up with any answers, i just gave you a list of reason why you cant find proof/un-proof.

Where did the 'builder' come from? Another builder? Where did that another builder come from?

If god is omnipotent, then god's builder must be more omnipotent? So on and so forth?

Your best defense is how was god created. I could reflect this back at you and say how was the universe created out of nothing. There is no answer how something came out of nothing.

[derF]

I do not believe there is a heaven. I believe it is a conception of man. When we die, we simple cease living, thus cease to exist. Just as before we were born, we didnt exist, its the same thing when we die.

[Quietus]

No beacause.
-there is no evidence of their habitat

No physical proof then.

-no evelution link to them.

As a believer in the metaphysical, you didn't factor in metaphysical origin. You, friend, are biased against Leprechauns

-they have left no mark

No physical proof again.

These arguments sound very familiar....

The entire physical world is physical.

Yes. Then, how do metaphysical beings make contact with physical beings like us?

God is in everything, thus he could move part of himself easy.

Then god is physical and we should be able to see him. According to you we can't.

i admit im probably not the best source of metaphysics

No problem.

Im christian so i am going to call god God. That is what i believe in. As for calling God he. In english male is the nuetral gender. We are mankind, if the was a group of guys and girls i could say hey guys. God doesnt have gendar, but it doesnt feel right to call god it, therefore "he" works best.

I'd still say that expression is an artifact of man patterning god to himself .

I dont see your logic. If i removed m brain i would die. That doesnt change the fact that God lets us make our own desecions, free will.

Breathing is free will? Eating is free will? Do you have a choice in terms of breathing and eating among many other things?

You just assume it is god, but evidence suggests it is not. Because Evolution is random. Now, if it is not random, I'd see an intention/design (from a higher being).

I'll type randomly:

hiuweoiesdffasdfoereuglklnvaelwe (what am I trying to say?).

I'll type with intent/design:

Bob Marley will always be the best musical force ever on Earth. (what am I trying to say?)

The grammar, punctuation, capitalization and spelling are all correct on the latter. That's 'intelligent design'.

Lets assume God is real here, dont you think the creater of the universe could set up evolution as he pleased

Evolution is random, how do you set that up?

Also, if god is real and omnipotent, I'd argue
- Spontaneous Creation not billions of years of random evolution.
- How many planets are there in our solar system? How many 'lifeforms'? Do each planets harbor the same condition as the other?

Your best defense is how was god created. I could reflect this back at you and say how was the universe created out of nothing. There is no answer how something came out of nothing.

I'd say nobody knows for sure. That's why assumption is an assumption. And god is a huge assumption.

[King of Atlantis]

No physical proof then.

As a believer in the metaphysical, you didn't factor in metaphysical origin. You, friend, are biased against Leprechauns

No physical proof again.

These arguments sound very familiar....

The whole concept of leprechans is not metaphysical. If you wanted claim there were metaphysical leprecahns then there is no way i could possibly prove it wrong or right.

Yes. Then, how do metaphysical beings make contact with physical beings like us?

Then god is physical and we should be able to see him. According to you we can't.

God is in everything, thus you do see him. Looking at a tree you are seing god, looking in the air you are seing god, but you want to see some mystic figure which isnt there.

I'd still say that expression is an artifact of man patterning god to himself .

When i imagine god i admit i see an old man with a great beard. That is a picture society has imprinted into my brain and it cant be helped, but that doesnt mean thats what i think God is. I believe God is in everything, being everywhere at once thus what his true image is is unimaginable to me.

Breathing is free will? Eating is free will? Do you have a choice in terms of breathing and eating among many other things?

No but i have a chioce in what i eat for dinner. God gives us that choice.

You just assume it is god, but evidence suggests it is not. Because Evolution is random. Now, if it is not random, I'd see an intention/design (from a higher being).

Lets assume evolution wasnt random, what would you see differnet. Scientific evidence doesnt go against god. Obviousl God created a universe were there is a system to everything. Laws that all things are bound to. Religion doesn't deny this.

I'll type randomly:

Evolution is random, how do you set that up?

If you believed that God was all powerful, the creator of everything, surely he could set it up.

Also, if god is real and omnipotent, I'd argue
- Spontaneous Creation not billions of years of random evolution.

Again God has made a universe of laws and systems, spontaneous creation wouldnt make sense.

- How many planets are there in our solar system? How many 'lifeforms'? Do each planets harbor the same condition as the other?

How many planets, some would argue this, but the standard number is 9. One of them has life at the moment, but Mars might have had life at some point.

I'd say nobody knows for sure. That's why assumption is an assumption. And god is a huge assumption.

I assume there is a creator to the creation
you assume there is none

We both make assumtions.

You seem so driven to find proof that God exist, but what kind of proof would you want to find and further more God why would God give you such evidence, then we would all be faithful, but we wouldn't have any faith.

[Quietus]

The whole concept of leprechans is not metaphysical. If you wanted claim there were metaphysical leprecahns then there is no way i could possibly prove it wrong or right.

First of all, I don't believe in the metaphysics. Secondly, you believe in metaphysics, but you are excluding metaphysics outright.

I don't believe in Leprechauns because there's no physical proof they exist. Same with god or unicorns.

God is in everything, thus you do see him. Looking at a tree you are seing god, looking in the air you are seing god, but you want to see some mystic figure which isnt there.

Where did the text from the Bible come from? The Koran? What's god's language?

When i imagine god i admit i see an old man with a great beard. That is a picture society has imprinted into my brain and it cant be helped, but that doesnt mean thats what i think God is.

So God didn't make man in his own likeness?

I believe God is in everything, being everywhere at once thus what his true image is is unimaginable to me.

How do you figure god is everything and everywhere?

No but i have a chioce in what i eat for dinner. God gives us that choice.

Is wood a choice of dinner? Do you eat wood?

We did not evolve to eat wood. Choice is an illusion because you are limited to eating what you evolve to eat. For example fruit.

We evolved to eat fruits due to our special relationship with plants. We eat the fruit and we disperse the inedible seed. You get the energy from the fruit, the nonmotile plant gets the means to disperse the seed.

There's no choice. Evolution is random. Our relationship with trees and fruit is random.

Lets assume evolution wasnt random, what would you see differnet. Scientific evidence doesnt go against god. Obviousl God created a universe were there is a system to everything. Laws that all things are bound to. Religion doesn't deny this.

If it isn't random, there there would be inherent order. And we'd know where evolution is headed.

If you believed that God was all powerful, the creator of everything, surely he could set it up.

If god set it up, then evolution wouldn't be random.

Again God has made a universe of laws and systems, spontaneous creation wouldnt make sense.

Circular logic there. Also, you seem to be saying our random existence is god's plan.

How many planets, some would argue this, but the standard number is 9. One of them has life at the moment, but Mars might have had life at some point.

So one out of 9 is intent? And each planets have different physical conditions. Sounds very random to me.

I assume there is a creator to the creation
you assume there is none

We both make assumtions.

There is no proof of god and science does not support it either.

You seem so driven to find proof that God exist, but what kind of proof would you want to find

I want physical proof because there is none.

and further more God why would God give you such evidence, then we would all be faithful, but we wouldn't have any faith.

You just said 'a tree' is god....

[King of Atlantis]

I said god is everywhere. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if God made the universe out of nothing it would be a part of him and he would be a part of it. Thus all creation is in his likeness.

Physical proof, give me an example of want you want to find. Imagine that you do bellieve in God/gods. I believe you couldnt thik of any evidence to find.

And we do have freedom to eat what we want. Like right now i could eat a pizza, a hotdog, etc... I could even go eat my dog. Thats free will.

Science isnt at odds with religion as science can never be used to prove or disprove a religion.

[A.Saturnus]

But the brain remains active for long periods after death. There is simply too much electrical charge within the central nervous system to instantly disipate. Therefore it is perfectly feasible that 'dead' people are still capable of thought.

No, at least not when you define death as zero EEG. There are still some random neurons firing after blood flow ceased, but without oxygen supply, the brain stops working rapidly. There is a myth that beheaded people are still awake for seconds, but that`s because motoric neurons firing can cause seemingly controlled movements. Consciousness and all higher brain functions disappear milliseconds after oxygen supply is gone.

[Quietus]

I said god is everywhere. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if God made the universe out of nothing it would be a part of him and he would be a part of it. Thus all creation is in his likeness.

You have no basis for this though. How can you be sure the tree is not a leprechaun in disguise?

Physical proof, give me an example of want you want to find. Imagine that you do bellieve in God/gods. I believe you couldnt thik of any evidence to find.

That's why you can't differentiate Leprechauns from a god or any other mythic creatures.

And we do have freedom to eat what we want. Like right now i could eat a pizza, a hotdog, etc... I could even go eat my dog. Thats free will.

You are only free to eat what you body evolved to digest, that's it. You're not free to eat your toothbrush, your spoon, your shoes or your pillows.

Science isnt at odds with religion as science can never be used to prove or disprove a religion.

Your body uses the same physical world to gather physical information as science does. If you or anybody can claim access to a god then science should have the same access. Therein lies the contradiction and discrepancy.

[Papewaio]

Loss of information ie 'soul' should result in a loss of energy. So human bodies should cool down faster as they lose the soul... no extra heat loss then no soul.

[King of Atlantis]

You have no basis for this though. How can you be sure the tree is not a leprechaun in disguise?

My basis is my belief and also logic. If there is a creator of the universe he would be all powerful.

That's why you can't differentiate Leprechauns from a god or any other mythic creatures.

You avoid the question. What proof do you want to see.

You are only free to eat what you body evolved to digest, that's it. You're not free to eat your toothbrush, your spoon, your shoes or your pillows.

actuall i could eat my toothbrush,spoon, shoes, or pillow though it might hurt me a bit. I dont think you realize what free will means.

Your body uses the same physical world to gather physical information as science does. If you or anybody can claim access to a god then science should have the same access. Therein lies the contradiction and discrepancy.

God could give you all the evidnece in the world that he exist, but then we wouldn't believe in him, we would be a mass a faithful while having no true faith.

[kiwitt]

Heaven does not exist, until I have seen proof

My Death is the end of my life. And I will try to avoid it as long as I live.

[King of Atlantis]

Heaven does not exist, until I have seen proof

since you havent seen proof it means it doesnt exist?

[kiwitt]

since you havent seen proof it means it doesnt exist?

Quite Simply, Yes.

I am not into blindly believing things until they are backed up by independent evidence.

In this case of the the Christian "Heaven" all sources point to the "Bible" as the evidence. This is not independent "evidence". Also, it should be verifiable and corrobrated.

As I said in other threads, I had difficulty in becoming christian, as I had difficulty in believing in "God", hence difficulty in believing in "Heaven".

[King of Atlantis]

You cant disprove belief because of disblief!

[kiwitt]

I am not disproving the belief, that is not my point here. Just that the proof does not exist for me and why.

People are allowed to believe what they will.