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Thread: more details on the shooting in London

  1. #1

    Default more details on the shooting in London

    The events that led to the shooting of a man on a Northern line Tube train yesterday began around 10am.

    The man, who several witnesses said was wearing an unseasonably warm overcoat or jacket, was walking towards Stockwell Tube station at the corner of Clapham Road and Lambeth Road.


    Forensic police officers investigate Stockwell Underground station
    It is thought that police had been following him for some time, perhaps from an address where he had been staying overnight. Sources said the man was not the one who fled from Oval station, a few hundred yards up Clapham Road, after his rucksack bomb failed to detonate on Thursday.

    One witness suggested that as the man neared Stockwell station, he became aware that he was being followed, but it is equally likely that police decided that they could not take the risk of allowing a suspected suicide bomber, who would probably feel he had little to lose, to go back on to the Underground network.

    In any case, the pace of events accelerated from this point. Chris Wells, a 28-year-old company manager, said he was travelling on the Victoria line towards Vauxhall when he left the train at Stockwell.

    He saw about 20 police officers, some of them armed, rushing into the station.

    He said: "There were at least 20 of them [officers] and they were carrying big black guns.

    "The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting 'get out, get out'." Several other witnesses reported seeing the man jump over the ticket barriers and being chased by three men in plain clothes but carrying guns.

    They said the fugitive ran down the escalator from the ticket hall to the Northern line, the deeper of two lines that run through Stockwell, the other being the Victoria line.

    There were plenty of witnesses to what happened next, but, as often happens in situations of extreme stress, the precise order of events is not certain.

    The most eloquent testimony came from Mark Whitby, 47, a water installation engineer from Brixton, who was sitting on the Tube train reading a newspaper while it was stationary with its doors open.

    He said: "I heard people shouting 'get down, get down'. An Asian guy ran on to the train and I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit - he was absolutely petrified."

    He added: "The man half tripped and was then pushed to the floor by three plain-clothes police officers who were pursuing him.

    "One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand.

    "He held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it all. He was dead, five shots. I was literally less than five yards away."

    Another passenger, Rob Lowe, 33, from Balham, south London, saw the incident from another viewpoint in the carriage.

    "The Tube was stationary and then a man came on who I presume now to be a plain clothes policeman, but at the time I didn't know who he was," he said.

    "He was looking quite shifty, getting up and sitting back down again. I felt a bit awkward around him.

    "And then he seemed to shout at some people on the other platform who then all came rushing.

    "The Tube suddenly filled up with loads of people running down to the end of my carriage.

    "Then I heard probably four or five loud bangs and saw a bit of smoke.

    "More armed policemen appeared, telling us all to get out of the Tube and people started running off.

    "It did look like there was somebody on the floor at the end.

    ''I didn't know whether it was a bag or a person, but then there was a lot of people around him and then I heard the bangs. It took a few seconds to sink in. I didn't really react immediately to it. I stood around for a bit until I was told to go."

    Mr Whitby said the dead man, who was fairly large and well-built, had a baseball cap on and "quite a thickish coat, a sort of padded jacket".

    "He looked out of place. It is hot, humid weather, but I didn't see him carrying anything."

    After the shooting Mr Whitby threw himself on to the ground. He said: "I was crouched down and worried about bullets flying around.

    The other passengers were distraught. It was just mayhem.''

    He added: "People were desperate to get off the Tube. There were people running in all directions, looks of horror on their faces, a lot of screaming from women.

    "There was also a noticeable smell of cordite, that acrid sort of gunpowder smell."

    Another passenger, Jason Dines, had been on a train stopped at a platform opposite the shooting when he saw "all hell break loose". He said: "I saw from the window there was suddenly a contagious wave of panic sweeping across the platform. It was not constructive.

    "People were trying to get out. We hadn't heard anything and didn't know what was happening.

    ''Suddenly everyone on my train started banging on the windows trying to get out of the carriages and get out of the station.

    "We didn't know what they knew or what was going on.

    "People were screaming for them to open the doors but they wouldn't.

    "Then suddenly they did and people were running everywhere."

    Joannah Pritchard, 20, had gone into the Tube station with her friend Astrah Stewart, 14, to buy a coffee.

    She said: "There was a loud bang. Lots of panic.

    "We were basically told by the police to start running. Lots of people were running towards the Tube. I think they were plain-clothed police officers.

    "One young lady was really, really upset. She came out saying 'A guy has been shot. Someone's been shot'."

    A few yards away, Duarte Osty, the 26-year-old driver of a bus that was approaching the Underground station, suddenly saw hundreds of people running out of the building. Mr Osty said: "I must have arrived just seconds after the shooting. People were running out of the station.

    "I saw police rushing straight into the station and I was asked to stop my bus.

    "Within two minutes at least 20 police cars had arrived at the scene and a helicopter was circling overhead.

    ''It seemed as though they were expecting something to happen the way they came so fast."

  2. #2
    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Looks like the first actual prevention of a suicide attack! Well done to the Met.

    Obviously the risk of not killing him on sight was far too great (clearly this had been very well planned), but he would have been very useful to have alive.
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  3. #3
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Scary...

  4. #4
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Looks like the first actual prevention of a suicide attack! Well done to the Met.
    from what ive heard theres no evidence of any bomb what so ever and infact the man isnt linked to any of the bombings...

  5. #5
    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Given the events of the last two weeks, if someone is dressed in a big winter coat, jumps over barriers and onto a crowded train, after having been told to freeze by armed anti-terror police, I would expect the police to shoot to kill.

    Listen, I am totally against excessive force, gun useage, hard handedness, gun-ho police and every other issue I myself see as a big problem in this case. But for christs sake, the police were left with no choice. If in fact the guy was completely innocent, then clearly it is extremely regretable, sad and would seem like a fair bit of a cock up from the Police. But now compare that with the potential cock up of not shooting dead a suicide bomber who then blows up a train carriage killing 25 people.
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  6. #6
    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    I heard the police new him and had been tracking him.
    Viva La Rasa!!!

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    Pining for the glory days... Member lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    You would think the first thing the police would do is publically announce if this man actually had a bomb or not...

    Im so damn cynical these days, half the time Im convinced things like these are government sponsored schemes to push hard-line legislation...
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody
    from what ive heard theres no evidence of any bomb what so ever and infact the man isnt linked to any of the bombings...
    This was on BBC news:

    Met Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said the shooting was "directly linked" to the ongoing London bombs inquiry.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Just read on the Beeb that the man actually ran into the Underground station from the street, with the police chasing him (not as previously reported that they first challenged him inside the station) and that he was believed to be an accomplice of the Thursday dud bombers. In other words, he actively saught out a subway station as a place to go while being chased.

    I am deeply split over this, on one hand we cannot live in a society where the police shoot to kill suspects without much firm evidence. On the other hand, I would not sacrifice 25 innocent commuters on the train finding out... the guy ran into the station from the street with armed officers in persuit, he failed to stop a number of times when ordered to do so. He jumped over the ticket baricade and made for a trian, he was wearing a large, bulky winter coat in the middle of summer. People, if it were my call I would have made the same decision.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    This is good news. These guys are fanatics so he might not have talked any way.... and UK doesnt have a death penalty but this guy got what he deserved.
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 07-23-2005 at 17:04. Reason: spellling
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  11. #11

    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    I think the U.K. may still have the death penalty for treason.
    I'm not sure.
    If that is the case then I think it would be perfectly apt in these circumstances.

  12. #12
    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff
    I think the U.K. may still have the death penalty for treason.
    I'm not sure.
    If that is the case then I think it would be perfectly apt in these circumstances.
    No, we don't (although a lot of people still think we do). The death penalty was comletely abolished by us signing up to the European convention of human rights. Until recently the death penalty could also be used for arson in her Majesty's dockyards and for piracy (although it has not been used for these crimes since the death penalty was abolished for murder in 1965). The convention also abolishes the death penalty in military courts.

    See http://www.amnesty.org.uk/action/camp/dp/uk.shtml for more.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

  13. #13

    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    So if you guys caught osama you couldnt kill him.... well if you do hand him over to US and justice will be served.
    Formerly ceasar010

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    The Breath of God Member Divine Wind's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Uh oh...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

    Not good, not good at all.
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  15. #15
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Um, that sucks...
    Will the police be brought up on charges?

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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Seems that I was wrong and the guy was inocent. This is really sad.



    BBC - Man shot dead not related to bombings
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  17. #17
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Although this bloke does appear to have been innocent, I still think the police made the right call. I'm completely against the curtailment of civil liberties in the name of security, but this guy was running from the police, and failed to stop when asked do-even running into a tube station. In the context of the recent bombings, I'm not sure what else they could have done.
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  18. #18
    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Yeah BKS, I agree, its seriously sad this guy died, but the Police reacted to what the guy did, his actions were stupid to say the least. I feel really sorry for him though, he must have been absolutely terrified to make those sort of decisions... to run into a train station while running away from armed police is the worst possible thing he could have done. Poor bastard.
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  19. #19
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Right call my ass. Someone is now dead because the cops had itchy trigger fingers. What about his family? Maybe there's a reason your cops shouldn't have guns.
    Are you aware of the circumstances at all? There had just been several failed bomb attacks on tube stations, and this guy refuses to stop when asked to by the armed police, before fleeing into a tube station! What else could they have done? If you've done nothing wrong, the general rule is not to run from armed police officers when they demand you stop-particularly when you're in a city that's just been hit by a major terrorist attack! If the guy had stopped, you'd have a point, but he didn't.
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  20. #20
    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Right call my ass. Someone is now dead because the cops had itchy trigger fingers. What about his family? Maybe there's a reason your cops shouldn't have guns.

    Dont talk nonsense! The guy is dead because of how he responded to orders from armed police officers to stop. He bolted into a train station, jumped a barrier and was running towards a crowded train. How should the police have responded?
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  21. #21
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Maybe...just maybe he did not know what Stop means?

    Like that is an excuse.

    At any rate, the police had no choice. Sorry Gelatinous Cube, but if you run from police right now anywhere...someone is going to make the call.

    The lesson is: Don't Run From Police

    Azi
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  22. #22

    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Well it did say some of them were in plain clothes maybe he thought they were gangsters.

    Any way if they were in uniform that guy made bad choice and paid for it.
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  23. #23
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    The man had nothing to do with the bombing:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

    "We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

    "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."


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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Until it is confirmed that he was wearing some kind of bomb, this is Police brutality by my book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Right call my ass. Someone is now dead because the cops had itchy trigger fingers. What about his family? Maybe there's a reason your cops shouldn't have guns.
    And if the next time they simply followed him into the subway letting a suicide bomber detonate a bomb inside killing 37 people? Would you be telling them what idiots they are for not taking action? Or would you be telling them what a great job they are doing?
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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  25. #25
    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Well it's always tricky, if he had been a bomber and they hadn't stopped him...

    On the other hand they were sitting on him, they couldn't have been too sure he had a bomb on him.

  26. #26
    Resident Northern Irishman Member ShadesPanther's Avatar
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    Default Re: more details on the shooting in London

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    And if the next time they simply followed him into the subway letting a suicide bomber detonate a bomb inside killing 37 people? Would you be telling them what idiots they are for not taking action? Or would you be telling them what a great job they are doing?
    Its just another case of Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't

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