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The man shot by London Police 5 times in the body, at point blank range, after being physically overpowered, of ASIAN origin, is confirmed by authorities to be NOT connected to the London bombings.
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
Shot man not connected to bombing
Police cordoned off a 200-metre area around the station
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.
The man was killed in Stockwell Tube station in an incident described by Scotland Yard as a "tragedy".
Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.
Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.
'Horrendous consequences'
A Scotland Yard statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.
"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.
"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."
Good response to CCTV plea
'They unloaded five bullets'
The statement confirmed the man had been followed by police from a house in Tulse Hill that was under surveillance.
His death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
John O'Connor, former commander of the Met Police, told the BBC the consequences of the shooting were likely to be "quite horrendous".
He said he expected officers to face criminal charges, and other officers could even refuse to carry weapons.
But Shami Chakrabarti, director of human rights group Liberty, said it was too early to judge what the effects would be.
She called for a "prompt, comprehensive and independent investigation".
Arrests
Police announced on Saturday evening they have raided another property in south London.
The house is currently being searched and it is believed armed officers are there, but no arrests have been made.
Police arrested one man after a raid on a block of flats in Stockwell
Two men are still being held at Paddington Green police station, central London, in connection with Thursday's attacks.
The first man was arrested at around 1630 BST on Friday during a raid on a block of flats near to Oval and Stockwell Tube stations.
Eyewitnesses said he was led away with a woman and child.
The second man was arrested late on Friday night, also in the Stockwell area.
Both are being held under anti-terrorism legislation which gives police 14 days before they have to bring charges.
CCTV images
Scotland Yard said they had been contacted by over 500 members of the public following the release of CCTV footage of four suspects.
Detectives said they were hopeful of useful lines of inquiry coming from the calls and e-mails.
Three devices found after the failed bombings were the same size and weight as those used in the suicide attacks of 7 July, which killed scores.
The fourth was smaller, apparently contained in a plastic box. The same chemicals appear to have been used.
They targeted Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush stations and a bus in Hackney.
The Hammersmith and City line train was removed from Shepherd's Bush station on Saturday afternoon.
Transport for London said it hoped to have trains running on the line from Paddington to Hammersmith on Saturday evening.
-------------
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
Shot man not connected to bombing
Police cordoned off a 200-metre area around the station
A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.
The man was killed in Stockwell Tube station in an incident described by Scotland Yard as a "tragedy".
Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.
Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.
'Horrendous consequences'
A Scotland Yard statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.
"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.
"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."
Good response to CCTV plea
'They unloaded five bullets'
The statement confirmed the man had been followed by police from a house in Tulse Hill that was under surveillance.
His death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
John O'Connor, former commander of the Met Police, told the BBC the consequences of the shooting were likely to be "quite horrendous".
He said he expected officers to face criminal charges, and other officers could even refuse to carry weapons.
But Shami Chakrabarti, director of human rights group Liberty, said it was too early to judge what the effects would be.
She called for a "prompt, comprehensive and independent investigation".
Arrests
Police announced on Saturday evening they have raided another property in south London.
The house is currently being searched and it is believed armed officers are there, but no arrests have been made.
Police arrested one man after a raid on a block of flats in Stockwell
Two men are still being held at Paddington Green police station, central London, in connection with Thursday's attacks.
The first man was arrested at around 1630 BST on Friday during a raid on a block of flats near to Oval and Stockwell Tube stations.
Eyewitnesses said he was led away with a woman and child.
The second man was arrested late on Friday night, also in the Stockwell area.
Both are being held under anti-terrorism legislation which gives police 14 days before they have to bring charges.
CCTV images
Scotland Yard said they had been contacted by over 500 members of the public following the release of CCTV footage of four suspects.
Detectives said they were hopeful of useful lines of inquiry coming from the calls and e-mails.
Three devices found after the failed bombings were the same size and weight as those used in the suicide attacks of 7 July, which killed scores.
The fourth was smaller, apparently contained in a plastic box. The same chemicals appear to have been used.
They targeted Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush stations and a bus in Hackney.
The Hammersmith and City line train was removed from Shepherd's Bush station on Saturday afternoon.
Transport for London said it hoped to have trains running on the line from Paddington to Hammersmith on Saturday evening.
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the guy ran what do you expect them to do. Uniformed and plain clothes officers were after him and he kept going why???
a guy that runs from the police and tries to jump into a train the day after a terrorist incident occured....
i would have shot him....
i would have shot him....
Its an unfortunate thing, but the guy was under surveillance, failed to respond to police commands, was wearing thick clothing and ran for a tube train, 5 shots is perhaps a little much, 2 to the head would have been enough - (double tap) - but they done the right thing.
I like the way they have Asian in capital letters. Its a bit stupid though if you saw anyone doing what he did he would be shot but obviously if he was asian (middle eastern) and did that you would be more worried as the police
What he did definately gave the police reason to shoot him. Also Ronin he was wearing a heavy jacket in warm weather now that is a little suspicius and 2 weeks after a suicide bombers and (i think the news said) suicide bombers the day before.
He definately did deserve to be shot. 5 may seem a little nuch but if he only is wounded he could still trigger a bomb.
What he did definately gave the police reason to shoot him. Also Ronin he was wearing a heavy jacket in warm weather now that is a little suspicius and 2 weeks after a suicide bombers and (i think the news said) suicide bombers the day before.
He definately did deserve to be shot. 5 may seem a little nuch but if he only is wounded he could still trigger a bomb.
Originally Posted by Sinan:
of ASIAN origin
of ASIAN origin
Originally Posted by :
The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.
Since when has Brazil been in Asia?The man, who died at Stockwell Tube on Friday, has been named by police as Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27.
This event is a tragedy, but if the reports of the man running from the police onto a train, despite being challenging to stop (vaulting over a ticket barrier in the process) are true, then I'm not surprised that the police decided to shoot him, under these circumstances.
I said at the time it seemed in cold blood and hasty, I never imagined the guy was no way near connected, merely just not a suicide bomber. This really is dissapointing. Bad form police.
JAG wth are they supposed to do. Asian man with heavy coat running from armed police..... Can you really blame them for shooting him after what has been going on in your city. If he was a terriost and they didn't kill him you would probably be like "why didn't they shoot him 5 or 6 times" 
Originally Posted by JAG:
I said at the time it seemed in cold blood and hasty, I never imagined the guy was no way near connected, merely just not a suicide bomber. This really is dissapointing. Bad form police.
I disagree Im afraid.I said at the time it seemed in cold blood and hasty, I never imagined the guy was no way near connected, merely just not a suicide bomber. This really is dissapointing. Bad form police.
He was apparently challenged, then ran into a station. Its unfortunate, but I think the actions of the police (however agressive) were legitimate.
His connection (or lack of) to terror is irrelevent.
Do you people forget something? These were PLAIN clothed policemen, trailing this man for a long time, wielding weapons and shouting and screaming. Can you not understand why this guy would be afraid for his life?!
Imagine yourself in this guys situation, you know what has happened in London and that there already has been retaliation strikes by vigilantes against muslims and mosques. Three big blokes are following you at a swift pace, you can't loose them, they suddenly tell you to stop and produce hand guns, when you panick and run they scream and shout and chase you... Do you have no regard as to how someone in his situation might be terrified out of his brain?
It is also not certain that he knew English, to at least English to a brilliant standard, so all those lovely shouted warnings, could have merely been interpreted as blokes shouting at their mates to get him. If you were in Turkey and three men kept following you, proceeded to then chase, shout in Turkish and produce firearms, after an attack like we have had... Would you not be scared of it being a 'revenge' attack on a person of your description?! No?
This is precisely why guns should NEVER be used but in the upmost instances of CLEAR and CONFIRMED danger. This is why you do not have a 'shoot to kill' policy. Remember the police had this guy pinned down, yet they still proceeded to shoot him five times in the head at point blank range, bloody madness and it is a disgrace. The policemen should be held with upmost suspicion, they very well might have acted out of some form of revenge, we simply do not know.
Imagine yourself in this guys situation, you know what has happened in London and that there already has been retaliation strikes by vigilantes against muslims and mosques. Three big blokes are following you at a swift pace, you can't loose them, they suddenly tell you to stop and produce hand guns, when you panick and run they scream and shout and chase you... Do you have no regard as to how someone in his situation might be terrified out of his brain?
It is also not certain that he knew English, to at least English to a brilliant standard, so all those lovely shouted warnings, could have merely been interpreted as blokes shouting at their mates to get him. If you were in Turkey and three men kept following you, proceeded to then chase, shout in Turkish and produce firearms, after an attack like we have had... Would you not be scared of it being a 'revenge' attack on a person of your description?! No?
This is precisely why guns should NEVER be used but in the upmost instances of CLEAR and CONFIRMED danger. This is why you do not have a 'shoot to kill' policy. Remember the police had this guy pinned down, yet they still proceeded to shoot him five times in the head at point blank range, bloody madness and it is a disgrace. The policemen should be held with upmost suspicion, they very well might have acted out of some form of revenge, we simply do not know.
JAG I thought some uniformed police were after him too???
Originally Posted by :
Imagine yourself in this guys situation, you know what has happened in London and that there already has been retaliation strikes by vigilantes against muslims and mosques. Three big blokes are following you at a swift pace, you can't loose them, they suddenly tell you to stop and produce hand guns, when you panick and run they scream and shout and chase you... Do you have no regard as to how someone in his situation might be terrified out of his brain?
It's quite possible that this is why he ran, and if it was the case, what happened is extremely regrettable. However, it does not change the fact that he did run, into a tube station, just days after bomb attacks on tube stations, and failed to respond to police instructions. Under these circumstances, I really don't see what else the officers could have done. I can see where you're coming from JAG, but I feel in this instance we have to give the Police the benefit of the doubt.Imagine yourself in this guys situation, you know what has happened in London and that there already has been retaliation strikes by vigilantes against muslims and mosques. Three big blokes are following you at a swift pace, you can't loose them, they suddenly tell you to stop and produce hand guns, when you panick and run they scream and shout and chase you... Do you have no regard as to how someone in his situation might be terrified out of his brain?
In response to your Turkish example, I might indeed have run in that situation. If I had fled onto the Istanbul underground-I'm not sure if there is one, but never mind-soon after a bomb attack on that same underground system, I would not find it unreasonable if the officers shot me. Well, obviously I wouldn't like it-I mean, I'd be dead-but if I was an impartial observer watching me, I wouldn't blame the police for taking me dopwn.
Was he already pinned down when the shot him? Then it is first degree murder and the lot of them should be up for adding and assisting the crime as they did not stop it.
If he was still running and not stopping then it was the right thing to do, given the series of suicide bombings.
If he was still running and not stopping then it was the right thing to do, given the series of suicide bombings.
I suspect they shot him merely out of fear that he was carrying a bomb. Hard to restrain a guy who is willing and able to blow himself and all around to pieces. Five rounds seem excessive though. It seems to me to be a failure of intelligence coupled with real fear to me.
They should certaintly be brought up on charges. And since when is Asian the same thing as Middle Eastern? It's not, last I looked.
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Was he already pinned down when the shot him? Then it is first degree murder and the lot of them should be up for adding and assisting the crime as they did not stop it.
If he was still running and not stopping then it was the right thing to do, given the series of suicide bombings.
My point exactly! He was ALREADY PINNED DOWN, by an officer on him - ALL eyewitness statements say this - then another officer came up with a gun in his left hand and shot his head off five times. There was zero need to actively shoot him, they got him. The fact that he was totally innocent compounds the situation and definitely makes it something we should take very seriously. We cannot have the police shooting to kill every 'funny looking asian' that there is in this country. We have thousands upon thousands of asian citizens, it is not fair. Was he already pinned down when the shot him? Then it is first degree murder and the lot of them should be up for adding and assisting the crime as they did not stop it.
If he was still running and not stopping then it was the right thing to do, given the series of suicide bombings.
BKS - of course you would not like it, you would be dead, don't be silly. If I was totally innocent and I was shot like that by the police, I would be pissed out of my mind.
Originally Posted by :
shot his head off five times
They can do that!?shot his head off five times
Well I see why they did it...but I dont like it because if he was a terriost and had a dead mens switch on a bomb then they would all be dead.(thats when if the grip on the "switch" lossens the bomb will go off)
If they did not have his arms pinned down then I could see why they thought there was still danger.
If they did not have his arms pinned down then I could see why they thought there was still danger.
Well if I was an electrician I would be asking for danger money in the UK about now...
In all honestly, I don't care if the police's action was understandable, or whatever. They killed someone that was innocent, they have to face prosecution. If you kill someone by accident in a car, you still have to pay.
Police should be held even closer to the letter of the law than civilians, IMO.
Police should be held even closer to the letter of the law than civilians, IMO.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
I can't believe you guys are defending this. Even in America there would be uproar over this.
Shows how real the stiff upper lip thing is...I can't believe you guys are defending this. Even in America there would be uproar over this.
Why aren't you lot upset about the police not publising a major change in policy that allows them to shoot to kill?
Surely such a major policy change although logical should be known to the public. It is still not a police state and the public should have some say. I'm sure they probably would agree with it. Also the deterrent factor would rise if people knew about it...
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Shows how real the stiff upper lip thing is...
Why aren't you lot upset about the police not publising a major change in policy that allows them to shoot to kill?
Surely such a major policy change although logical should be known to the public. It is still not a police state and the public should have some say. I'm sure they probably would agree with it. Also the deterrent factor would rise if people knew about it...
IIRC, Britain has always had a "shoot to kill" policy, of some sort[1]. If the police believe someone is an imminent threat to life - e.g. pointing a gun at someone - they can shoot to kill that person. What has changed now, is that with the threat of suicide bombing, such an imminent threat could be perceived to be a man in a padded coat fleeing police and diving onto a tube train. The British police have consulted security forces in Israel and elsewhere that have had to deal with suicide bombers, and drawn lessons accordingly.Shows how real the stiff upper lip thing is...
Why aren't you lot upset about the police not publising a major change in policy that allows them to shoot to kill?
Surely such a major policy change although logical should be known to the public. It is still not a police state and the public should have some say. I'm sure they probably would agree with it. Also the deterrent factor would rise if people knew about it...
You have to understand the context. To people in Australia and the US, the shooting might look like something that just happened out of the blue. But it happened a day after the second attempt to detonate four suicide bombs on tube trains and buses in that area. Four escaped bombers were (are) being hunted in the vicinity. The police were probably as jumpy as US soldiers on the road to Baghdad airport at night and were taking no chances. Yes, far away, in the quiet of our homes, we might wish they were more restrained. And no doubt when things have quietened down, this kind of incident will once again be very rare.
Personally, I think it is a great tragedy that an innocent, scared young man has died in such an awful way. And it should be, and no doubt will, be investigated. But I see no prima facie case for any criminal charge against the policeman who killed him.
[1]British security forces have a surprisingly robust approach to the use of lethal force. I remember a TV documentary where German and British army officers were discussing policy in the case of civil unrest. A German officer was appalled: "You shoot at the looters?"
And what if the guy was a bomber? Then people would be up in arms because the police didn't kill him.
It's cases like these where the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think so, anyway.
It's cases like these where the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think so, anyway.
I still think there's too much unknown. Where there uniformed police there or weren't there? When the man was shot, was he trying to get up and run again or was he down with a policeman on top of him? Its seems like you're hearing just about everything on this story.
Originally Posted by Xiahou:
I still think there's too much unknown. Where there uniformed police there or weren't there? When the man was shot, was he trying to get up and run again or was he down with a policeman on top of him? Its seems like you're hearing just about everything on this story.
Like with most police shootings in the United States - I am sure the British run a board of inquiry into the events, circumstances, situation, and overall mental impressions and state of the Police Officers involved.I still think there's too much unknown. Where there uniformed police there or weren't there? When the man was shot, was he trying to get up and run again or was he down with a policeman on top of him? Its seems like you're hearing just about everything on this story.
Frankly most police officers have a conscience about their having to shoot someone. So I will wait for the official investigation and conclusions before I condemn these police officers or there actions.
Ok, there has been repeated suicide attacks, a man IN A THICK COAT IN HOT HUMID WEATHER, come running down away from plains clothed AND UNIFORMED police into a tube station, he tries TO RUN INTO CROWED CARRIAGE, police tackle him and shoot him to stop him pulling theoretical trigger in his hand that would have killed 30 people.
How in gods name can you condemn the police???
Its the coat thing that solves the issue for me, and that he was comeing from a house connected to earlier attacks. I just can't understand your position Jag what should they have done? Read him his rights while he blows 30-40 innocent people to Kingdom come???
How in gods name can you condemn the police???
Its the coat thing that solves the issue for me, and that he was comeing from a house connected to earlier attacks. I just can't understand your position Jag what should they have done? Read him his rights while he blows 30-40 innocent people to Kingdom come???
Originally Posted by :
My point exactly! He was ALREADY PINNED DOWN, by an officer on him - ALL eyewitness statements say this - then another officer came up with a gun in his left hand and shot his head off five times. There was zero need to actively shoot him, they got him. The fact that he was totally innocent compounds the situation and definitely makes it something we should take very seriously. We cannot have the police shooting to kill every 'funny looking asian' that there is in this country. We have thousands upon thousands of asian citizens, it is not fair.
BKS - of course you would not like it, you would be dead, don't be silly. If I was totally innocent and I was shot like that by the police, I would be pissed out of my mind.
Even when pinned down, he still might have been able to activate his bomb, had he had one.My point exactly! He was ALREADY PINNED DOWN, by an officer on him - ALL eyewitness statements say this - then another officer came up with a gun in his left hand and shot his head off five times. There was zero need to actively shoot him, they got him. The fact that he was totally innocent compounds the situation and definitely makes it something we should take very seriously. We cannot have the police shooting to kill every 'funny looking asian' that there is in this country. We have thousands upon thousands of asian citizens, it is not fair.
BKS - of course you would not like it, you would be dead, don't be silly. If I was totally innocent and I was shot like that by the police, I would be pissed out of my mind.
Lol, JAG, you make it seem as though its not fair to shoot asians because there's so many of them. And I wonder how pissed off you could be - without a head.
Seriously, this is a tragic situation, but I will wait for the inquiry.
Crazed Rabbit
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
The man was innocent, and now he's dead. The law is the law, and if it was here in the US I would be pusing for them to be fired. The Circumstances suck, but when you take risks you need to own up when you're wrong.
The man was innocent, and now he's dead. The law is the law, and if it was here in the US I would be pusing for them to be fired. The Circumstances suck, but when you take risks you need to own up when you're wrong.
To be fired!! WTF!!
They were doing they're job in protecting the general public, this guys actions warranted the belief that he intended to kill as many people as he could, he was stopped. Sure with 20-20 hindsight and knowing he was innocent then a wrong is done, but I wrong wasn't done by the police, they took the appropriate action under the circumstances and no matter how much you pussy foot around after the action thats a fact. They did the only thing they could.
Their actions which were entirly legitmate under the circumstances done to save the lives of 30 people. We now know he is innocent but all the evidence available to the police showed a definite threat the populace.
What would you have done in their place?
What would you have done in their place?
It is great seeing all these Conservatives picking and choosing their belief in the 'sanctity of life'. They do it everytime, it is surprising they don't believe in moral relativism, they use it enough.
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