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Thread: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

  1. #1
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    I was recently lured by Drisos into ElMarkofFear tread. I was rather interested but... I've got some rather disappointing experience - I've got rather strong impression - like this project would never start in present form. Reason is - this idea isn't formalised enough.

    Then I would like to ask some rather stupid noob question.
    1. Can we edit troops numbers in SP saves?
    2. Can we specify odd number of men for our troops in MP combats?

    If anyone knows answers on these questions, then we can make ElMarkofFear-like campaign with human player battles.
    It is quite simple thing - each player send to GameMaster his moves and if two armies meets in some province - GameMaster notify both players about amount of meeting armies (like in game). If both players like to make battle - they came in MP Server in map of province in question with exact amount of troops, which were led to this battle. Then battle result (with all losses and honour promotions) must be sent to GameMaster, which edit next year save - accordingly all player moves and battle results. Period. Next season starts...

    Annual harvesting can be calculated in the same method - Game Master will use some randomization method for receiving some number from 1 to 9.
    If he will get 1 - all players (including Rebels) will get -50% in koku harvesting (this number don't include non-harvestable input).
    If 2 or 3 - all players will get 25% of harvesting detriment.
    If - 4,5 or 6 - all players must receive normal harvest.
    If - 7 or 8 - all players will receive 25% bonus from harvesting.
    If 9 - all harvests increase in 50%.

    Every season "Legendary Swordsman" event for any player will be checked.
    Probability of getting this event is derived from making 24 or 30-sides dice toss. Player in question will enjoy this event - if dice show number, which LESS then amount of battles which his clan led.
    It means - in case of 30-sided dice - if you led 4 battles you will get result if dice will show 1,2 or 3. And so on - as many battles occured for your faction as much probability for event rise up.

    Game Master must invoke some sort of self-imposed penalties for players which make their Karma a bit worse, but breaking their Oathes, and so on...

    Well, then initial question - do you know a method for numbers of men in unit editing? If - yes, let's start to brainstorm this problem.

  2. #2
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Wow... Eureka! I've got an idea!
    I'm not sure if we can edit Shogun saves, but we can edit scenario starts in Medieval - in absolute free manner!

    It would be quite simple thing - Game Master edit Scenario addind year in each iteration, starts game for each faction and send saves (not scenario raw-sheets) of each Faction to Faction leaders. Then Faction leaders send him their moves - make fightings in MP room on chosen charts with their Campaign armies and send results to Game Master.
    He changes scenario sheets according to all player simultaneous moves, do all randomization tasks (including - Vices and Virtues appointing to some personages these guys become to be Famous Leaders in special field in scenario list) thenj - nest year starts.

    Well, what do you think about it?

    I will copy this idea into Medieval part of MP Campaign Forum, then if we will not find method to edit Shogun savesw - it seems like we can convert this thing into full-scale MP Medieval experience.

  3. #3
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Oh, well I become to be quite old and senile.

    Shogun is plain old boardgame in PC environment. We need only to play our battles in MP environment. All Campaign part can occur on sheetlist and in our imagination.
    Moves of all our units full description + building queues + troop producing queues is enough. It mustn't to be produced on screen at all. Then actual PC playing part would occur only from MP battling in plain MP-server. All other things can be played on simple paper-sheets.

    Is anybody interested in such sort of campaign? (But any ideas about possibility saves edition for visual presentation of process would be appreciated - anyway.)

  4. #4
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    I'd love to but it is hard to realise. AI vs. AI is fine for me too.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  5. #5
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Quite opposite.
    We can make 3-province rule for participitants.
    It means - whole Shogun environment possess 60 different provinces.
    We will divide them in groups by 3 provinces. It means - each 3-provinces means 1 clan in Sengoku Jidai environment.

    For example Uesugi lands is divisable onto two logical parts:
    Uesugi : Echigo (capital) - Shinano - Hida and
    Date: Mutsu (capital) - Dewa - Sado
    Hojo lands is divisible onto 2 parts as well:
    Hojo: Musashi (capital) - Kozuke - Shimotsuke
    Satori: Kasuza - Shimosa (capital) - Hitachi

    and so on (Takeda and Imagawa lands are divided on 3-provinces parts from the start)

    It would means - we can get 20 different clans in the game from start. Yep, most of them - in West especially go bankrupt immediately, but it means - after 3-4 years of game - only fittest will survive.

    Any province will get the same garrison - 1 Arch +1 YSam
    Capital province will get Daymyo + standard capital buildings + Port + something which would be derived from "clan affinity"
    For example:
    A) Any clan can receive "Oda bonus". It would means - discount to Ashis + additional castle with Spear Dojo + 3 Ashis.
    B) "Uesugi bonus". It would means - discount to archers + inability to be Christian (means Uesugi was KENSHIN + do you need Arquebusiers if you've got a lot of Archers?) + 2 Arch from start.
    C) "Takeda bonus". Discount to Cavalry + inability to make an Agreements + 2 Cavalry from start + all Cavalry buildings in capital.
    D) "Imagawa bonus". Discount to utility units + 1 "Eternal Friendship Agreement" which neighbor can't decline + 2 Ninja/Shinobi from start.
    and so on.

    If you like we can play with 9 active players - each will receive 2 blocks of 3-provinces. Queue in choosing of provinces would be next:
    1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
    It means - guy who will choose the Best block of provinces will get the Worst block as well.
    OK we can have 8 or 7 or less guys - all not used provinces will become Ronin provinces.

    No problem, - I'm ready to keep all moves - it's no problem.

    Main idea is - we like to have FUN and we like to create Shogun MP Campaign with Human vs Human fighting.

  6. #6
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Talking Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Well Bash, all great idea's IMO. and if you succeed in somehow lauching such campaign I will play in it. many others will be intrested too, I can tell.

    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  7. #7
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    No problem at all. All what we need - each player must participitate in election of starting position for his clan. Then he must fill next form:

    Something like this:
    ___________________________________________________________

    Spring 1530

    Clan: Satori
    Bonus: Oda
    Player: PlayerName (player must fill in his own nick)
    Coffers: 1000 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Shimosa - Castle // New Building (must be filled if you like to build something in Shimosa province - this field must appear only after Castle or None string)
    Shimosa - Spear Dojo // New Unit (must be filled if you like to make unit - this field must appear into first mentioned Dojo)
    Shimosa - Archer Dojo
    Shimosa - Tranquil Garden
    Shimosa - Port

    Hitachi - None // New Building (must be filled if you wish to build)

    Kasuza - None // New Building (must be filled if you wish to build)

    Hizen - Castle // New Building (must be filled if you wish to build)
    Hizen - Spear Dojo // New Unit (must be filled if you wish to to it)
    Hizen - Port

    Chikugo - None // New Build

    Chikuzen - None // New Build

    UNITS

    Shimosa - Daymyo 11(amount) 3(honour) 0(att) 0(arm) // New Prov (must be filled if you like to move Unit to New neighb prov)
    Shimosa - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Shimosa - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    Hitachi - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Hitachi - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    Kasuza - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Kasuza - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    Hizen - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Hizen - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    Chikugo - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Chikugo - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    Chikuzen - Arch 60 0 0 0 // New Prov
    Chikuzen - YSam 60 0 0 0 // New Prov

    UTILITY

    Shimosa - Emissary // New Prov
    ___________________________________________________

    That's all!

    Let's imagine - this guy like to start building Castle (500 koku) in Hitachi + build Ashi in both Sword Dojo (2*75).
    Then he like to send all his units from Kasuza to Shimosa and from Hizen to Chikuzen (quite sensible ideas).
    Then he would like to move his Emissary to Musashi province.

    He must post something like that - he can fill in fields only after // mark!

    Spring 1530

    Clan: Satori
    Bonus: Oda
    Player: FIERY FIGHTER (for example)
    Coffers: 1000 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Shimosa - Castle //
    Shimosa - Spear Dojo // ASHI 75
    Shimosa - Archer Dojo
    Shimosa - Tranquil Garden
    Shimosa - Port

    Hitachi - None // CASTLE 500

    Kasuza - None //

    Hizen - Castle //
    Hizen - Spear Dojo // ASHI 75
    Hizen - Port

    Chikugo - None //

    Chikuzen - None //

    UNITS

    Shimosa - Daymyo 11 3 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    Hitachi - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Hitachi - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Kasuza - Arch 60 0 0 0 // SHIMOSA
    Kasuza - YSam 60 0 0 0 // SHIMOSA

    Hizen - Arch 60 0 0 0 // CHIKUZEN
    Hizen - YSam 60 0 0 0 // CHIKUZEN

    Chikugo - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikugo - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Chikuzen - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikuzen - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    UTILITY

    Shimosa - Emissary // MUSASHI


    All player building and producing must be done in CAPITAL (and maybe Bold) letters with necessary cost mentioning after order. If player would ask more things then his coffers will allow - if this thing was found earlier then in last day - GameMaster will ask him to change these things in appropriate manner, later - some of producing would be dropped - like in Shogun actual game.

    All player moves must be made in CAPITAL letters and - maybe - in Bold letters - for Game Master convenience. If player will do impossible move - GameMaster will try to inform him about it, but in case of necessary time for change or response, move will be abandoned - like in actual game.

    Game Master will collect all player moves and in case if there wasn't fightings - he will send next sheet to player in question.

    ___________________________________________________________

    Summer 1530

    Clan: Satori
    Bonus: Oda
    Player: FIERY FIGHTER
    Coffers: 350 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Shimosa - Castle //
    Shimosa - Spear Dojo //
    Shimosa - Archer Dojo
    Shimosa - Tranquil Garden
    Shimosa - Port

    Hitachi - None // Castle - 3 (turns left) (Field is filled - it means - you can change it now)

    Kasuza - None //

    Hizen - Castle //
    Hizen - Spear Dojo //
    Hizen - Port

    Chikugo - None //

    Chikuzen - None //

    UNITS

    Shimosa - Daymyo 11 3 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimosa - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    Hitachi - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Hitachi - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Hizen - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    Chikugo - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikugo - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Chikuzen - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikuzen - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikuzen - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Chikuzen - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    UTILITY

    Musashi - Emissary //
    ___________________________________________________

    I'm sure - whole procedure after - a couple of iteration would be rather simple.
    Battle thing is a bit more complex - I would ask BOTH participitants to fix number of killing for their units (by pressing F2 in moment of appearance of battle results and sending me initial .tga files or raw numbers). It is important, because these battle results will influe resulting honor of unit in question. For example - Arch unit of 60 men killed in battle 30 guys, but lost 20 guys in process. Then resulting info for this this unit would be:

    Yamashiro (for example) - Arch 40 0.500 (amount of killed divided on initial number of guys in unit - or 30/60 - if this unit will fight in next battle it would have 0 honour, because resulting honour for this unit would be actual honour rounded down) 0 0 //
    If player couldn't produce these numbers - then his units will not get their honour upgrade - alas, we must be cruel to slackiness - at some points

    Do you see?

    Then let's start to recruit volunteers for this kind of experience. Provincial structure of Shogune assumed its internal grouping on clusters with 3-provinces in each cluster. It means - every player will get 6 provinces if we will get less then 10 players or 3 provinces in case - if we will get more then 10 participitants.

    All kinds of player interaction is possible, but only - between direct neighbors. Non-neighbors can make some sort of communication between them (via PM and ICQ), but all agreements between them are only on their own conscience.
    Neighboring Factions of the same Faith can make "Eternal Agreements" - with "Heavens Punishment" of violator by non-direct means.
    Daymyo can be killed by Ninja, Geisha or in battle, but Faction will get new Daymyo in most advanced Castle immediately (we are assuming any Daymyo of these times has got son or adopted son of a sort). New Daymyo will receive 3 Honour - immediately.

    Game comes to end as soon as group of Daymyo controlling at least 41 provinces (2/3 + 1) will proclaim one of them as Shogun.

    Division on 3-province clusters and clan bonuses - are disputable and will be determined a bit later.

    One turn of the Game will continue 1 week and must start in 00:00 of Greenwich in some work-day (I would prefer Tuesdays, but it is debatable) of week (for participitants would have leisure time while playing or not-playing ;) Shogun at weekends.

    If somebody can't make his moves in some week, he can allow to do it for his "Vice-Roy". If somebody can't participitate in actual fighting - he can appoint some "C-in-C" for his armies or (in worst case) aloow to play AI for his cause ;).

    If anybody is interested in this sort of Campaign, please - assign in.

    Dear Drisos, - can you ask ElMarkof Fear to convert his campaign in HumvsHum fighting? If yes, we can make our playing in existing crew in full-scale Sengoku Jidai environment. I show you example of possible MP Campaign notation, then we can play in fast, formalized and smooth way.

    P.S. Oh, I've explained in Medieval MP tread method for "initiative checks" in case of simultaneous movement (attacking) of different players in the same time. Then - all players MUST make their movement simultaneously - for better player interaction.

  8. #8
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Talking Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    looks very good again Bash. I now believe this shall be a success. Well, I think you should e-mail Elmarkofear and tell him your idea's. (I'll send you pm for his email)

    his first idea was the same as this, but he gave it up and decided AI vs. AI. (don't know why, I thought he had hosted another one before, with hum vs. hum)

    many, many players were intrested, but when they heard about the AI vs. AI few rested. in the following months we found some more and we now have quite some players. but elmarko has bought a new house and is moving, and very busy with it. I thought he'd come back in the beginning of August, which is just a few more days.

    I'd be glad to post at some other forums and some clan board about this. and if I could, I'd be glad to help, but I'm not good with comp at all. well, puzz3d knows freaking much about the game, so if you have question's you can pm him.

    hope this continues. it would be great.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  9. #9
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    OK. I needed couple of days for checking ideas and MP Campaign is formalised enough. Let's start to specify game rules.

    1. Game is started in Spring of 1530 and countinues till all sides come to agreement about all-Japan Shogun name.
    Shogun must be proclaimed by Lords which are keeping more then 41 province of Japan from 60.

    2. Lords are - non-destructible in Game sense. It means - some of them can be killed in battle, or by ninja/geisha. In this case - new Lord of 3 honour would appear in most upgraded Castle of his realm. If Lord has two or more castles of the same ranks - he will appear in Castle which posses more buildings (Farm improvement isn't counted). If amount of buildings is the same - Lord will appear in province with higher basic value.
    If Lord hasn't Castle - his Faction goes into Void and all his remaining lands become to be Ronin.
    Due to Lord non-destructibililities - heir concept isn't valid any more. There isn't any heirs now in Shogun MP environment.

    3. All moves occur simultaneously. In case - if we need to find order of unit movement we've got two Rules of Engagement:
    A) All moves between lands of the same Lord occures faster then anything else.
    B) All moves which don't lead to battle engagement (in other words - if you come into empty province of enemy) occur after moves, which correspond A) condition, but before anything else.
    C) In case if your move is leading to battle - "initiative check" is counted.
    All troops are divided onto "mounted" and "non-mounted".
    Fully "mounted" army win "initiative" from "non-mounted" or "mixed" army, fully "non-mounted" army lose "initiative" to "mounted" and "mixed".
    If both armies is the same type - less numerous army wins "initiative".

    In case of "initiative" checking - procedure of asking Lord if he wishes to make fight is changed.
    If side which wins initiative like to make fight - opposing side (presumably more numerous side) can't decline fighting.
    In case of "meeting engagement" (one army goes from A to B direction, while opposing army goes from B to A direction) if "more initiative" army like to abandon fighting, it would means - "initiative" goes to their opponents. If this ("less initiative" - presumably more numerous) army would like to make fighting - their opponents can't decline this thing as well (imagine some guys which come into enemy territory and see huge army, which coming in their direction - they can fight immediately and battle would occur onto enemy land, they can lose heart and return to their own land, but if pursuing enemy would like to fight they must fight anyway with helping hand of local garrison) - we can name this thing as "caught while moving".

    All battle result occures after all battles finishing. In other words - if some army comes in enemy lands, loses its heart and start to retreat - it is the same thing - like actual battle occured. Then if originated provinces (province from our coward came out) was lost in the same turn and there isn't any province for fleeing army to retreat - this army is disappearing into "thin air".

    4. There isn't way to change taxing in provinces - for simplicity purposes. Each province yield 100% of koku in each year + all upgrades (of course).
    Population loyalty in any province is raising onto 5% for each peaceful season and is dropping onto 5% for each warring season. Peaceful season start in case of Peace agreement of any sort between warring states or in case - if there wasn't actual fighting between sides in 4-season (1 year) timespan.
    Each battle victory raise all local loyalties in whole realms (this thing means all occurencies - while enemy retreated without actual fighting) on 5%. Each loss drop all local loyalties on 5% as well.
    Daymyo unit is raising local loyalty onto 30%.
    Every 60-pers of garrison raise loyalty on 5% in given province. If garrison is more then 60 - then local loyalty would increase in manner - with exclusion of Daymyo unit - {[(total number of local army/60) rounded down] * 5%}.
    "Awful harvest" -50% - drops all provincial loyalties onto 50% immediately.
    "Bad harvest" -25% - drop all provincial loyalties on 25%.
    Good years - improves loyalties - respectively.
    Border Tower is raising local loyalties for 10% for each season.
    Border Fort is raising local loyalties for 20% for each season.
    Shinobi presense in enemy land is dropping local loyalties on 10%, in own lands - is raising on 10%.

    Local loyalties is capped onto 200% level and can't exceed this level.
    If local loyalties is worse then 100%, then 20 side dice would be checked - each 5% less then 100 means more numbers for local revolt (i.e. in case of 85% of local loyalty numbers 1,2 or 3 from 20 possible means - revolt occures). Loyalty check will occur AFTER all fighting results counted.
    It means - if huge local army was evaporised as battle result - local loyalty can drop to rather dangerous level.

    5. Eternal Agreements and Agreements are introduced.
    Sides can make "Agreements" or deals, which can be broken by huge price of harvest/loyalty/all random events dropping in manner described by participitants of deal.
    Sides can make "Eternal Agreements", which can't be broken at all. Each Clan can be initiator of only one Eternal Agreement from game start (but can be participitant of two or more Eternal Agreements).
    All Agreements and Eternal Agreements go to void as soon as one side of this deal turns to Christianity.
    Buddhist and Christian clans can't make new agreements.
    Two Christian clans can make Agreements again, but can't make Eternal, because "Eternal Agreement" is starting feature - like starting bonus.
    Agreements and "Eternal Areements" can be dealt only - between direct neighbors.
    Some clans (like Takeda) can't make any sort of agreements in whole course of the game - it is sort of "negative bonus" for clan in question - as well.

    Any clan can make any deal with any neighbor in any game moment - it means - any money/units/land or not-material things transfers at instant speed.
    It means one player in Musashi province can sold his YSam unit in this province to player holding Shinano province if this YSam unit will be transferred to Shinano province IN THE SAME TURN.

    6. Random events have calculable nature now.

    "Legendary Swordsman" event is determined in eash turn by 20-sides dice throwing. In case if dice would show number LESS then number of ACTUAL battles of this faction (if opponent or player makes retreat it isn't actual battle), then "Legendary Swordsman" event occures.
    It means - if Clan has 3 actual battles - number 1 or 2 means this event occurence. In other words - after 21 ACTUAL fighting - this event will occur after end of 21-st battle anyway.

    "Portuguese arrival" occures in random manner from Spring of 1550 (20-sided dice again - each season 1 number will add - it means in Spring of 1555 event occures anyway) in Hizen province.
    Each turn - some sort of wave of "tokens" go through whole Japan from one province to other and if this token comes into most upgraded Castle of some clan - this faction would receive this event as well.
    It means - dice checking will occur for Hizen province - anyway. If Hizen has most developed Castle of any Clan - then this Clan is receiving "Portuguese arrival" event in this turn.
    In next turn - if any faction has their most upgraded Castle in Chikugo or Chikuzen - this Clan would get this event. And so on

    "Dutch arrival" occures in random manner from Spring of 1560 (20-sided dice again - each season 1 number will add - it means in Spring of 1565 event occures anyway) in Izu province.
    Each turn - some sort of wave of "tokens" go through whole Japan from one province to other and if this token comes into most upgraded Castle of some clan - this faction would receive this event as well.
    It means - dice checking will occur for Izu province - anyway. If Izu has most developed Castle of any Clan - then this Clan is receiving "Dutch arrival" event in this turn.
    In next turn - if any faction has their most upgraded Castle in Suruga, Kai or Sagami - this Clan would get this event. And so on.

    It is main Rules for MP Campaign.

  10. #10
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Province and Land distribution in MP Campaign.

    We've got 60 provinces in Shogun environment, which is divisable onto 18 different realms with 3 provinces in each realm. There is 6 provinces, which isn't belong to any Clan - they are Ronin provinces from start.

    These provinces:

    Yamashiro (Emperor province) - 350 koku of basic value
    This Province possess Hidden Palace - some weird structure which hasn't any producing troops ability, but can be described as Fortress with 960-men capacity. In the same time personal honour of local defenders demand fighting with any invader - anyway, then holding capacity is meaningless.
    This Province possess next Army:
    2 HeavCav, 2 YCav, 2 CavArch, 2 No-Dachi, 2 Naginata, 3 YSam, 3 Arch - yep 16-unit stack army of 1 honour for each unit.
    Only really bold and powerful Clan would try to disturb Emperor in his Hidden Palace.

    and 5 cheapest provinces of environment:

    Noto - 100 koku
    Suruga - 100 koku
    Tajima - 95 koku
    Izu - 70 koku
    Awaji - 60 koku.

    Each of these provinces don't have any Castle or other building/improvement.
    Each of these provinces possess the same Rebel army:
    1 Arch, 1 YSam, 1 Ashi
    Rebel armies can't retreat (they aren't scum throngs, - they are local small warlords - then they must fight and die or commit seppuku - grim choice indeed).

    Rebel will fight any invader, but can't invade themselves. In the same time Rebels will ENTER EMPTY provinces of any Clan. Province will be considered as EMPTY if it holds less then 60-pers garrison.

    __________________________________________________________

    All other 18 realms - has their own Clan names, Clan bonuses, distribution of troops and buildings.

    If we would get more then 9 players, then any player would get only one realm with 3 provinces.
    If we would get more then 6 players, then any player would get 2 different realms with 3 provinces in each realm, and he can choose between different Clan Set of Bonuses. His capital and name would match Clan Set of Bonuses - of course.
    Choosing order would be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 with first player would get BEST realm (best for his perception - of course) and WORST realm (worst for communal perception - as it seems) as well.
    If we would get more then 4 players, then any player would get 3 different realms with 3 provinces in each realm, and he can choose One Set of Bonuses from 3 different.
    Choosing order would be 1-2-3-4-5-6-6-5-4-3-2-1-1-2-3-4-5-6.

    In next messages I will describe all 18 Clans with their provinces and bonuses. Some of them would be definitely better then other, but you must use your own judgement for Clan Assessments.

    I will describe them by groups in 3 clan in each message.
    Clans are grouped by... sum raw basic values of their provinces. Then richest Clans would be first, but if they are most POWERFUL clans - must be your own decision.
    Yep, it is rather "smoke-screen" method for description, but... Well, I will make some comments about relative strength and weaknesses of each Clan, but take my words with grain of salt - use your own brains and judgement.

    We can start our Campaign as soon as we would get more then 4 players, but more players - better!

  11. #11
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Let's start Clan descriptions:

    1. ODA - Richest Clan with most numerous armies.

    Winter 1529

    Clan: ODA
    Player: PlayerName
    Coffers: 1000 koku

    PROVINCES

    Owari (capital and port) - 650 koku
    Ise - 440 koku
    Omi - 235 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Owari - Castle //
    Owari - Spear Dojo //
    Owari - Archer Dojo
    Owari - Port

    Ise - Castle //
    Ise - Spear Dojo //

    Omi - None //

    UNITS

    Owari - Daymyo 11 3 0 0 //
    Owari - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Owari - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Owari - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Owari - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    Ise - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Ise - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Ise - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Ise - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    Omi - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Omi - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Omi - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //
    Omi - Ashi 60 0 0 0 //

    CLAN BONUSES:
    1. Oda can produce Ashigaru unit for 3/4 of its raw price.
    2. Oda can't produce YSam (but can buy them).
    _____________________________________________________

    Quite simple and straight forward Clan - indeed.

    A LOT of cheap guys indeed. More then that - Oda has second Ashi producer from start as well. It means...

    Well, Oda must be quite evil steam-roller from game start - as it seems, but if and when game would advance in more later stages - Oda bonus would nullify itself and main Oda detriment (inability to produce defensive mainstay of Shogun-era armies - plain, but all-important YSam) would raise its ugly head.

    Secondary thought must be about -two-bridged Owari landscape, then Owari defence would be more tricky thing, then similar fighting for River-bound capital provinces of major Oda counterparts... Ehm, it seems - like - if Oda would take rather passive route of development - later periods for this Clan promise to be more murky then earlier stages of Game...

    Last ideas must be about - rather evil absence of any diplomatic bonuses, - more often then not - closest neighbour of Oda - Tokugawa would use its only relevant bonus - "Eternal Friendship Agreement" request and Oda hasn't diplomatic/bonus tools to waive this rather evil thing out.

    Well, well - Oda is ideal and VERY potent weapon for game start. If you can use these initial seasons - it is Dream Clan for any form of Blitzkrieg.
    _____________________________________________________________

    2. TAKEDA - Most Violent Clan with fastest armies.

    Winter 1529

    Clan: TAKEDA
    Player: PlayerName
    Coffers: 1000 koku

    PROVINCES

    Musashi - 640 koku
    Sagami (port) - 460 koku
    Kai (capital) - 200 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Musashi - None //

    Sagami - Port //

    Kai - Castle //
    Kai - Spear Dojo //
    Kai - Archer Dojo
    Kai - Cavalry Dojo

    UNITS

    Musashi - YCav 60 0 0 0 //
    Musashi - CavArch 60 0 0 0 //
    Musashi - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Sagami - YCav 60 0 0 0 //
    Sagami - CavArch 60 0 0 0 //
    Sagami - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Kai - Daymyo 11 3 0 0 //
    Kai - YCav 60 0 0 0 //
    Kai - CavArch 60 0 0 0 //
    Kai - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    CLAN BONUSES:
    1. Takeda can produce Cavalry (all variants) unit for 3/4 of its raw price.
    2. Takeda can't produce Ashigaru and Archer units (but can buy them).
    3. Takeda can't make any form of Agreements in whole game course. (Reason - Takeda Shingen ousted his own Father, then all other Lords see him as ABSOLUTELY non-trusthworthy person.)
    _____________________________________________________

    POWER. Yep, this concept came to mind as soon as we see this clan initial position and Bonuses.

    Takeda Clan will be absolute King of any Plains from start - and in very long time-period. And this thing means POWER.
    Second steam-roller of Campaign from start, but if Oda is King of cheap infantry of environment, Takeda rules local PANZERS. Whoa!

    But if we would make second thought about Takeda we would realise - it is rather resource-wasting clan indeed. If you can keep ugly cavalry unit maintenance, then you are in cream, but if not...
    (Hint: Takeda received second-richest Musashi instead of original game dirty-poor Izu, because - trial runs shows quite bad thing - its coffers used to empty themselves in lightning manner - you need Archers as Takeda -for keeping Musashi bridges for example - anyway, but CavArch is rather posh equivalent to regular troops).

    Last idea is - Takeda is MOST powerful clan in the game and as most strong boy in kindergarten, he is used to abuse more shy boys. Till these boys don't collect themselves in band and... try to gang-bang somebody - like in real history. Then my advice to STRONGEST guy in environment - your diplomatic skills are nil, then watch your back. It is good advice and... let's say - soothsaying of some sort.
    _____________________________________________________________

    3. HOJO - Most Iron Skinned Clan with a lot of brickworks around.

    Winter 1529

    Clan: HOJO
    Player: PlayerName
    Coffers: 1000 koku

    PROVINCES

    Mutsu (capital and port) - 600 koku
    Kozuke - 410 koku
    Shimotsuke - 210 koku

    BUILDINGS

    Mutsu - Castle //
    Mutsu - Spear Dojo //
    Mutsu - Archer Dojo
    Mutsu - Port

    Kozuke - Castle //

    Shimotsuke - Castle //

    UNITS

    Mutsu - Daymyo 11 3 0 0 //
    Mutsu - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Mutsu - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Mutsu - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Kozuke - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Kozuke - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Kozuke - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    Shimotsuke - Arch 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimotsuke - YSam 60 0 0 0 //
    Shimotsuke - YSam 60 0 0 0 //

    CLAN BONUSES:
    1. Hojo can build Castles (and upgrade them) for 3/4 of its raw price.
    2. Hojo can produce YSam unit for 3/4 of its raw price.
    3. Hojo can propose one "breakable" Agreements from start to his neighbors, which can't be declined, but can be broken by heavy price. It is up to neighbor to keep it as "Eternal" (non-breakable) or not - Hojo can't break any of their Agreements. It is up to Lord Hojo - to propose any number of Agreements - only first of them can't be declined.
    (Reason - Hojo considered themselves as descendants of ancient Shoguns then they saw themselves as "bound by honour" - to keep their words by any price. As result - majority of Lords were happy to see them as Friends.)
    _____________________________________________________

    RESILIENCE. Strictly speaking - I would place this Clan lower then 3rd position, but it is quite strong, rich and inclined for surviving clan. Difficult play, hard problems, nasty neighbors, but...
    Hojo strength is ability to BUY OUT exit from any problem. Their coffers allow them this form of luxury. Your most dangerous neighbor - Takeda would need any koku from start - if you like to keep him happy - BUY a couple of calm years from this bully. Your task - to survive initial stages of Game till time while your superior building abilities would give you a bit more chances.
    You improved diplomatic abilities can help you in this rather tricky position.

  12. #12
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Talking Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Keeps looking great!

    hope some join us here.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  13. #13
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Please, help me with your input. My Russian colleague advised me to rename 3. HOJO to 3. DATE, for obviour reasons, by moving HOJO name to more southern cluster of Hitachi-Shimosa-Kasuza region. Then it seemas like I would take this lead.
    Then I need your assistance in determining Clan names - for province clusters. I've got a next vision of Japan division onto 18 parts. (3 is DATE now and 4 is HOJO instead of initial Satomi.

    1. ODA: Owari (650) - Ise (440) - Omi (235) : 1325 of raw koku;

    2. TAKEDA: Musashi (640) - Sagami (460) - Kai (200) : 1300 of raw koku;

    3. DATE: Mutsu (600) - Kozuke (410) - Shimotsuke (210) : 1220 of raw koku;

    4. HOJO: Hitachi (620) - Shimosa (290) - Kasuza (190) : 1100 of raw koku;

    5. IMAGAWA (maybe - RYUZOJI?, but I would prefer IMAGAWA, because I've got fine idea for bonus application to this cluster owner. Yep, I'm aware about the fact - real Imagawa must be in actual Tokugawa region, but I'd like to keep Tokugawa name bound to their ancestral Mikawa region. In this case we would need to make this region as RYUZOJI, but apply to them initial Imagawa bonus, while IMAGAWA name would go to Void):
    Hizen (408) - Chikugo (320) - Chikuzen (304) : 1032 of raw koku;

    6. UESUGI: Echigo (420) - Dewa (400) - Sado (160) : 980 of raw koku;

    7. Most tricky name - I must choose from MIYOSHI or HOSOKAWA, which ruled these lands in different times, but I'd prefer quite ahistorical HIDEYOSHI name - instead of them, - by obvious reason. OK.
    Let's assume it is HIDEYOSHI clan - if nobody would create flame war from this subject:
    Kawachi (420) - Harima (220) - Tamba (220) : 860 of raw koku;

    8. TOKUGAWA (I would prefer rather ahistorical name over more usual IMAGAWA, just for plain respect for guy with TOKUGAWA name):
    Shinano (340) - Mikawa (260) - Totomi (155) : 755 of raw koku;

    9. AMAKO (or BESSHO): Sanuki (380) - Bizen (190) - Bitchu (114) : 684 of raw koku;

    10. ASAKURA: Echizen (280) - Mino (260) - Wakasa (103) : 643

    11. ICHIJO: Tosa (242) - Iyo (220) - Awa (180) : 642

    12. MATSUNAGA (not sure about it - maybe TSUTSUI): Kii (270) - Yamato (202) - Iga (120) : 592

    13. IKKO-IKKI: Etchu (220) - Kaga (200) - Hida (120) : 540

    14. SHIMATSU: Satsuma (180) - Higo (178) - Osumi (175) : 533

    15. OTOMO: Buzen (228) - Hyuga (174) - Bungo (120) : 522

    16. MATSUDA (not sure about it): Aki (153) - Izumo (143) - Bingo (130) : 426

    17. OUCHI: Nagato (139) - Suo (139) - Iwami (120) : 398

    18. MORI: Inaba (125) - Mimasaka (123) - Hoki (103) : 351

    If you know better names for proposed provintial clusters/Clans - please, advise them.

  14. #14
    Member Member Cha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    My brain is too tired to read all the rules but I'll still join.

  15. #15
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cha
    My brain is too tired to read all the rules but I'll still join.
    Welcome to the ranks, Cha!

    Oh, it seems like I've missed positive response from Drisos. Excuse me, please. Wlecome to the board - Drisos!

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member ElmarkOFear's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    A lot of work getting all that data isnt it Bash. :) Nice job. I have held two STW MP campaigns in the past based on the STW single player campaign, with battles being fought human vs. human. It took on average 1 1/2 weeks when battles had to be fought. This was with 8 very dedicated people who tried their best to play their matches as soon as possible. Scheduling, time zone, and other various problems all kept the 1 1/2 average pretty constant. Since the EA STW server is no longer, the turn around on your campaign may be longer than in the past. It will be extremely hard to schedule matches between opponents.

    The above problems, were the main reasons I chose to do MP battles AI vs AI in this next campaign. To speed things up. It also gives SP players the opportunity to play vs. the MP players, without getting destroyed by the more experienced, battle-hardened MP players.

    Good luck and have fun. The most fun, during the campaign, was watching everyone maneuver diplomatically with the others. It was quite entertaining from an observer's standpoint. hehe I found out just how sneaky some of my STW friends could be.
    I have seen the future of TW MP and it is XBox Live!

  17. #17
    Member Member Bash's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
    A lot of work getting all that data isnt it Bash. :) Nice job. I have held two STW MP campaigns in the past based on the STW single player campaign, with battles being fought human vs. human. It took on average 1 1/2 weeks when battles had to be fought. This was with 8 very dedicated people who tried their best to play their matches as soon as possible. Scheduling, time zone, and other various problems all kept the 1 1/2 average pretty constant. Since the EA STW server is no longer, the turn around on your campaign may be longer than in the past. It will be extremely hard to schedule matches between opponents.

    The above problems, were the main reasons I chose to do MP battles AI vs AI in this next campaign. To speed things up. It also gives SP players the opportunity to play vs. the MP players, without getting destroyed by the more experienced, battle-hardened MP players.

    Good luck and have fun. The most fun, during the campaign, was watching everyone maneuver diplomatically with the others. It was quite entertaining from an observer's standpoint. hehe I found out just how sneaky some of my STW friends could be.
    Sure thing - diplomatic side of this thing is most important part of MP multiplaying.
    Yep, I've checked a lot of MP tread and found out - Human vs Human fighting is really tricky business. A lot of guys - actually can't participitate in them.
    Then I'd like to propose new feature for our Campaigners. There was quite few Kings which were good battle-Commanders in history. Then we can imagine - some of our best Daymyo in political sense would be rather lousy bettle commanders. Then we are ready to introduce special feature for these guys - division onto "Daymyo" and "Chief Hatamoto" roles.
    If some Daymyo can't participitate in actual Hum vs Hum fighting, or hasn't quick-speed modem or his provider gives him dangerously large lag for adequate battle performance, or there is Firewall weird settings or He's got private IP address and Fake Server like to have static global adress instead - in all these case - our Shogun can suggest to some more experienced/battle-hardened dedicated MP fighter - "Chief Hatamoto" place in the Clan.
    Yep, it would means - a lot of bickering between Daymyo and his Hatamoto in case of quite non-satisfactory battle-result with attempt to clear - if it was Hatamoto clumsiness in battle-field or Daymyo lousy performance to provide adequate troops for his brave Hatamoto.
    I can imagine situation - while Daymyo orders to advance onto enemy, Hatamoto refuse to start battle on reason: "Clan forces aren't adequate for this task". :) Then Daymyo can fire his Hatamoto and hurted Hatamoto can propose his service to former enemy for punishing former Master for his rudeness. And so on...
    More then that I can imagine scenario - when Daymyo of some warring Clans in West would ask one of Eastern Daymyo to be his Hatamoto in some special battle - for some meager amount of koku presented for this Service. Some really hungry for koku input leaders - like Takeda - would be happy to sell his fighting skill on temporal basis for meeting his own troop maintenance burden.

    In any case it would lead to more player-player interactions and any player interaction increase would lead for strenghtening Shogun community - and it is MOST important thing for us - under present conditions.

    Sure thing - diplomatic ability as well as - ability to make good friends in MP Campaign is more important skill for any Daymyo then ability to win just one battle. Diplomatically skillful and treacherous "Russian Fox" Czar Alexander I lost all his major battles to brilliant military leader "French Lion" Napoleon Bonaparte, but won anyway, because he could create and keep alive - some quite lousy and constantly bickering "Coalition of Losers" while all superior tactical skill of French Emperor didn't save him from intentional gang-banging from all possible sides. (When his own General Bernadotte appointed by Napoleon himself as Swedish King - goes to "Coalition of Losers" it means - French Emperor is missing some quite important social skill - as it seems.)
    Well...

    ___________________________________________________________

    P.S. My own former colleagues from MSU were very interested in Sengoku Jidai formalized description, then I've got quite huge input from my last message. The I would get quite important input from specialist on Japan history in this evening (yep, Friday evening is good moment for socialising (small drinking) in Russia. Then from Saturday I will post new distribution of Japan provinces.

    Today situation is - all my former MSU community is strictly against from presenting Musashi province to Takeda clan from start. It seems like - Date Clan must be more feeble (receive less inits) and have Mutsu, Dewa and Sado provinces from start, while Kozuke and Shimotsuke provinces must go to Clan Uesugi realm.

    I was made as quite laughing stock by my friends for "Eternal Agreement" feature. It seems like Daymyo of Sengoku Jidai timespan were happy to make some agreements for definite timespan and were used to keep their words for these agreements, but "Eternal"/agreements for indefinite timespan - is Nonsense. Then we would get just Agreements on definite times (onto 5 years or 20 turns as maximum), which can be prolonged by sides, but There wouldn't be - "Eternal Agreements" at all.
    __________________________________________________

    Well, it seems like Western part of Japan calls less arguments in our circle, then I will start to describe Japan clans from West to East for making more whole and understandable picture. Yep, I was urged to put on proposed Clan positions in jpg form. Then I will post mini-maps of some sort for any Clan - for you better understanding of its main features.
    Maybe first chart with Kyushu Island and 3 local Clans will be posted today (until my evening meeting), maybe tomorrow in second part of Saturday.

    Stay tuned.

    Bash

  18. #18
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    Hello Bash,

    I was on holiday for two weeks but am back now. I still want to join.

    don't worry about those clan names. they're fine

    hope this thing goes on somehow... good luck
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  19. #19
    Member Member Cha's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    The different time zones that we have could be a problem. Look at how long the tournament is taking.

  20. #20
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: What about of new MP campaign with Human vs Human Tactic?

    yes but I won't mind a campaign taking long.. plenty of time for diplomatics and good thinking. with the tourney it's annoying indeed. I'm now really doing my best to get in touch with you Cha, and hope the next tourney lasts a bit shorter.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

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