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Thread: Magyar and Khazars

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Magyar and Khazars

    Thank you all for having them in the game. If you need any sort of info about them, or other steppe matters, I'd love to help you guys in any way possible.
    I'm a historical advisor for EB, and I know a decent amount about the guys in question, and in matters such as the horses used, tactics, weapons and armor, and what really happened to them.
    Just offering if you want some help.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-24-2005 at 02:25.

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    Abou's nemesis Member Krusader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    They also have Bulgars
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    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    If we could have a complete unit list for magyars and bulgars, I'll do them next. They will probably share a lot of models, maybe even units. Bopas descriptions looks very good, maybe you (bopa) could collect them into one post. And we should also get the bulgar unit list done.

    cheers
    Last edited by ScionTheWorm; 07-24-2005 at 12:37.

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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Magyar and Khazars

    The Khazars are definitly a must to have :)

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    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    they are of high priority yes

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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Steppe , what about the religion of the Khazars ? Where they came from , what happened to them ?

    I know this : at some point they became Jews (not ethnically) and they had the mightiest empire between the British ils and India in c. 800 ce
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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    The Khazars were a Turkic tribe from one of the three tribal confederations that emerged from the Türküt Khakhanate. They were one of the first Turkic tribes to move westwards, if not the first (since it is unsure if Bulgars were actually Turks, or rather Iranian).



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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    wow.....

    We do not sow.

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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    The Khazars were a Turkic tribe from one of the three tribal confederations that emerged from the Türküt Khakhanate. They were one of the first Turkic tribes to move westwards, if not the first (since it is unsure if Bulgars were actually Turks, or rather Iranian).



    ~Wiz

    Thanks , please some details , about the Turkut Khakhanate and the three tribal confederations . what happened to the Khazars ?
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Thats not really clear, as there is little evidence, but apparantly they were in parts overrun by the rus, and migrated to Poland, but was at the end whiped out by Genghis Khan.

    You could try reading this article... Alot of reading about the affairs of the Khazars, Bulgars, Byzantines, and muslims.

    -Skel-
    Last edited by skeletor; 07-25-2005 at 13:57.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I doubt that they moved to Poland. It's more likely that some became steppe auxalries for multiple nations including Russia and the Byzantines. Some probably were absorbed by the Pechenegs and later Qipchaqs, and ended up in Hungary (which was the typical ending place for defeated steppe tribes).

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Hey Scion I think Legio has already done a Magyar unit list from my units descriptions

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    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
    Hey Scion I think Legio has already done a Magyar unit list from my units descriptions
    no I think it's still the old ones in that thread (tech tree, beginning).

    can somebody research bulgar units? will they be very similar to magyars?

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I doubt it mate, I will try to find some info on them, but since I don't speak their language I will be deprived of some great sources .

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I think Bulgars would be sort of similar to the Khazars and Magyars (horse archers, and all that). I have some info, I'll pull it up and post it when I get a chance .

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Anyone knows their religion... This is quite imortant..

    -Skel-

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I this where you wanted me to post the unit list I researched?

    Well here it is.

    Ok here goes the cavalry.
    Note: Magyar cavalry should be bettter than the horse archers depicted in RTW. These guys wereb't defeated for over a century remember.

    Cavalry.

    Néptörzs Magyar. These fierce fighters from the Taranian plain shook Europe to its core, their ferociaty and skill with the bow and sabre allowed them to defeat every enemy they encountered for over a century, while the Englisc would dread the sails of the Viking keels, the rest of Europe would dread the thunder of Magayar hooves. "From the Magyars' arrows deliver us, oh God!". These horse archers would wear a knee lenght tunic of red and yellow cloth covered by a leather cuirass. Their boot were tough leather and went all the way up to the thighs. They wore leather bands around their hands to protect their fingers from the bow's lasserations. Their helmet was pointed iron with a horse hair crest of red upon it. Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field.

    Néptörzs Khabars. These tribesmen split off from the main Khazar community and joined the Magyar federation in search of a better home. They would wear a green knee length tunic and knee length leather boot along with a leather pointed cap rimmed with fur. They carried the Magyar recurve bow and the curved sabre. Their horse would of had only leather padding. These men are some of the fastest cavalry around, but lack armour.

    To Second Rung.

    Magyars ból a Alföld. These Magyars enjoy the benefits of technology and wealth. They wear a red and yellow knee length tunic under a sleeveless fir trimmed green jacket. Their boots are knee length and leather trimmed with white fur. They wear black leather gloves on their hands. They carry, a recurve bow and a sabre. Their horses are protected by scale and leather padding armour.

    Nyugatra Avar. These Avars are all that remains of the people that once stormed forth from the Taranian plain. But they are still deadly. They would wear a chain mail hauberk and thigh lenght leather boots, a steel "Frankik" helmet with nose guard and eyepieces. These men would carry a long spear and a kite shield. Their horses had scale and leather padding/armour. These men are the earliest form of Magyar heavy cavalry.

    Nagy Székely. These are the last nobles of the western Branch of the Huns, they are a proud race who ache for better times, they see the coming of their Magyar bretheren as their salavation. "They thought the scourge gone, but it was only drawing breath". These men wear black and grey furs over a cote of mail. Their helmets have developed from Rus and Hunnic designs, the result is a truly fearsome look. A pionted steel helm rimmed with black or grey wolf fur, it has a nose guard and eyepieces, a chain mail neck guard covers all of the face and neck save the eyes, atop this helm is a black horse hair plume. They wear chain and leather boots and and gloves, they carry the dreaded recurve bow as a secondry weapon, their main weapon is the dreaded double headed hun battle axe, at the tip of its head are hooks which they use to catch routers or pull other cavalrymen from their saddles. They also carry a round wooden shield coverd with leather and rimmed with steel. Their horses have scale armour covered with a black and grey fur horse coat. These men were called the scourge of god for good reason.

    To Third Rung.

    Lovasság ból a Fejedelem. These are the lesser nobles of a "prince's" tribe, some would even be his family. After seeing what heavily armoured horse could do the Magyar princes started to equip themselves and their retainers with heavy mail hauberks, they also started to put heavy scail-mail armour on their horses. These men wear a rich green and yellow thigh length tunic over a (long sleeved) knee length mail hauberk, there boots are still of leather as are their gloves. They wear the same helmet as the Nagy Székely except they have a green horse pleum instaed. They carry the recurve bow, and a larger version of the Magayar sabre. They are lead into battle by a prince, who would be wearing a lavish red and yellow cloak over a chainmail hauberk, they would wear black leather boots and gloves. They carry a recurve bow and a a sabre. Upon their heads they wear a steel frankik helm with a steel crouwn on it, atop this they would have a plume of red and yellow horse hair and three black feathers. Their horses are armoured exactly the same way as their men.

    Lovasság ból a Alföld. These heavy lancers of the Pannonian plain are the second arm of the Magyar heavy cavalry wing. Armoured with a round wooden shield covered with leather and rimmed with steal, plate-mail, and a Frankik helm with nose guard and chain mail coif along with chain mail gloves. armed with a strong heavy lance and a sabre. Their horses are armoured with scail and leather padding. These men are part of the new Magyar cavalry wing, a heavy westernised lancer, they do not use the bow. These men have the edge over their western counterparts as they have more experiance because of almost constant warfare with Byzantium and the Bulgars for near a hundred years.

    To Fourth Rung

    Nemes ból a Palota. These nople of the palace have been selected from the highest nobles in the realm and have sworn undying alliegence to the Kende.
    These men like the Magyars ból Buda are armed and armoured in the modern Frankik way, they are infact "pagan" versions of mounted knights. They bring onto the fiels the sacred banner of the Turul. When these men charge staraight at you, then you will know true fear, each and everyone hase been riding a horse since the age of four, they are the devil on horseback.

    Pata ból a Kende. These men are the chosen warriors from among all the peoples of the Magyar fedarate, they wear plate and mail armour, a mail coif and gloves. Their helmet are the same as Lovasság ból a Fejedelem except thier plume is white. They carry a large Magyar sabre, a recurve bow and a kite shield. Their horses are armoured with chain-mail and then have a white horse coat over it. These men wear a red coat trimmed with white fur.
    They are led into battle by the Kende (sumpreme chief/king) this man would wear plait armor and chainmail, a steel frankik helm, atop which is the Turul crest ( just a falcon with wings spread and both feet upn the helmet) made of silver, he would have a red and yellow sash around his waist. His horse would have chain mail armour coverd by a white and black horse coat.

    This is the entire cavalry list, hope its ok it took me fricken ages.
    Note: all magyars cavalry had the stirrup.

    Infantry


    Kisebbik Magyar.
    A long knee lenght robe of red and yellow cloth under a thicker brown woolen garment that covered the chest, pointed leather cap rimmed with fur, a Magyar recurve bow, and either a spear, a sabre, or an axe.

    Kisebbik Kabar , a thigh lenght tunic of green wool, knee length brown leather boots, a Magyar recurve bow, a simple iron skull cap and leather strips wrapped round their arm from their fingers to their elbows.

    to second rung.

    Kisebbik Magyar ból a Fejedelem, these are the lesser men from a Fejedelem's (princes) Magyer/tribe, they wear thigh length leather boots, a thigh lenght tunic of red cloth under a hauberk of scale armour and an iron pointed helmet with chainmail covering the back of the neck, carry the Magyar sabre aka. Hunnicus Gladius, a Magyar recurve bow and a round wooden shield covered in leather.

    Lábfejek ból Székely fiú ból a Hunor, these are the Huns of the Alföld sons of Hunor brother of Magor father of the Magyars. These people are hard and rugged fighters, all that is left of the "Scourge of God". They wear a grey woollen thigh lenght tunic, and knee lenght leather boots, they wear on their torso a leather jerkin trimmed with Wolf fur and a leather pointed cap also trimmed with wolf fur. They carry the same bow as the Magyars and the same sword they also carry a small iron round shield.

    Kisebbik Avars ból a Alföld, these heavily armoured spearmen are a strange concept in a Magyar army, they are slow moving heavily armoured spearmen. They wear a chainmail longsleeved hauberk that reaches just below their knees, a pair of fur boots and gloves, a pointed iron/steel helmet with a nose gaurd and eyepeices with chain mail attached from ear to ear. As a weapon they carry a long one handed thrusting spear, and in the other hand they hold a wooden tringular shield rimmed with steel/iron.

    To Third Rung.

    Lábfejek Magyar, these are the ultimate when it comes to pure Magyar shock infantry. long sleeved Chain mail hauberk, leather boots and gloves, a large two handed Magyar sabre, a pointed steel helm with a leather neck guard from cheek to cheek and alarge round shield on their back.

    Kende's Avars. They were described by europeans as carrying "Halberds", they would wear a rich red and yellow cloth knee length tunic under a thigh length long sleeved mail hauberk, they wore knee lenght leather boots and "cut-off" gloves. Their helmet would have been the same as the Lábfejek Magyar but with a hoarse hair crest of red and yellow.

    Kende's Lábfejek, these men were born to fire a bow, their skill is unmatched, they are the elite of the Magyar infantry. They would wear a long sleeved knee length cloth tunic of Red and yellow trimmed with green, under an open sleevless jacket of red and yellowed dyed wool trimmed with white fure. Their leather boots were knee lenght and black as were their gloves, their trousers were of a fine green cloth. They carried the best and most powerful recurve bowsand a steel sabre, on their heads they wore pointed steel helmet from which hung a chainmail neck gaurd from ear to ear and atop it they had a red, yellow and green hoarse hair crest.

    Magyars ból Buda. These Magyar serve as the guards of the Royal city of Buda, they are formiddible fighters the elite among the seven Magyar tribes, the Huns, Avars and Khabars. They wield the long straight sword of the Franks, carry the Frankish kite shield and are armoured in exactly the same fashion as Frankish knights. Among them would be the Magyar priest the Táltos who would carry into battle the legendry banner of Árpád, The Turul.

    I hope this is ok, when do you think you will have the first moddels done?

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Note: Sorry when I say plate or Plate-Maile I mean the asian form of plate, such as the Samuria of the Moyammaya 9sp?0 period would have worn.

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    Abou's nemesis Member Krusader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Info on Bulgars. There are some links for Magyars and others in there too.

    Battle Reenactment Group, but has lots of info with sources
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    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    very good bopa.

    the thing knowing about similar units is that if their models is the same, it's really fast to skin one or two more when one is finished (for instance magyar archer. then when I've done that skin, I would quickly do the bulgar too,)

    I'm sorry I'm a little absent this week, and will be totally next week. I'm working on a cas import/export script for blender actually, and having some time away from the screen

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    The Bulgars, will they be the Balkan Bulgars or the Volga Bulgars? Because there were really two Bulgar Kingdoms, one on the steppe, one in the Balkans.

    Bopa, some of those horse archers should have no horse armor, IMO.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-27-2005 at 17:31.

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    No alot of first hand sources state that the Magyars did use armour for there horses.

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    Axebitten Modder Senior Member Dol Guldur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I saw your interest in the oft-forgotten Khazar Empire and thought I'd post some notes from my own study of this interesting matter of some years ago.

    I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work (The Thirteenth Tribe), as a previous poster has linked to already - he drew on Arabic sources (to this day I believe Moslems refer to the Caspian Sea as Bahr-ul-Khazar, meaning 'the Khazar Sea').

    The Khazars were a cavalry-based culture. They had an enormous power at one point and stretched over some centuries...

    AD 0627: Khazars lend 40,000 horsemen to Byzantine Emperor in order to defeat Persians

    AD 0635-0737: Arab-Khazar War (Khazar buffers Europe from Moslem forces)

    AD 0641: Khazars defeat Bulgars - The Bulgars, after their defeat, split into two groups. Those that went northeast settled in the middle Volga and remained under the power of the Khazars. The group that went west were eventually to settle what we now call Bulgaria.

    AD 0650: Fall of West Turkish Empire; Rise of Khazar Empire - The Khazars came to rule all of 'The Kingdom of the North' and at the height of their power controlled or had tribute from thirty nations and tribes between the Caucasus, Aral Sea, Ural Mountains, Kiev, and the Ukrainian Steppes. M.I. Artamonov, a Soviet archaeologist, wrote in his book Istroria Khazar:

    "Until the ninth century, the Khazars had no rivals to their supremacy in the regions north of the Black Sea and the adjoining steppe and forest regions of the Dnieper...The Khazars were the supreme masters of the southern half of Eastern Europe for a century and a half, and presented a mighty bulwark, blocking the Ural-Caspian gateway from Asia into Europe. During this whole period, they held back the onslaught of the nomadic tribes from the East."

    To emphasise the importance placed upon the Khazar Empire by the great power of Constantinople it is interesting to note that Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Byzantine Emperor and a historian, said in the Tenth Century that whereas the Pope of Rome and the Emperor of the West received communications from Constantinople sealed with a 2-solidi-worth gold seal, the Kagan (the Khazar King) received his letters sealed with a 3-solidi-worth gold seal!

    AD 0732: Byzantine Emperor, Constantine V, marries Khazar princess (same year as Battle of Tours: Charles Martel defeats Moors in France)

    AD 0740: Around this time the Khazars make Judaism their state religion - The Khazars had Jews (mainly Karaites, a strict sect) living among them and so were familiar with the religion. Not only this but the Jews evidently exercised quite some influence in the Kagan's court. The move to Judaism was thought to be a political move on the part of the Khazars, as converting to the Christian or Moslem religion would have meant being subordinated to the Eastern Roman Emperor or Caliph respectively. This way Khazaria retained its independence as a separate power in the world. The Jews considered Khazar a haven before AD 740 but afterwards came to think of it more as a national home. Khazar, in its written language and crafts etc., gradually became Judaized.

    AD 0775: Leo IV (son of Constantine V by Khazar wife) rules as Byzantine Emperor (also known as 'Leo the Khazar')

    AD 0862: Rus settle parts of western Russia; Novgorod founded; Kiev passes from Khazar to Russian control and begins to become central city of Russian federation; Russia begins its history as a nation under Prince Rurik

    AD 0896: Magyars conquer and settle Hungary - The Magyars were a people related in their language group to the Finns, although they lived in the region of the Slavonic tribes. They were long-term allies of Khazaria and when they settled Hungary it is thought their ruling horde were Kabars (a tribe of the Khazars). The Hungarian language (Magyar) shows many loan words from a Turkic tongue.

    AD 0965: The Rus defeat a Khazar army - Khazar (or Khazaria) at this point in time had lost much of its former power but was still strong in its heartland. Subsequent and vague events indicate that Khazaria was raided several times but may have survived as a state until AD 1150 or maybe even into the middle of the Thirteenth Century. Its influence, by blood and by its Jewish religion, spread into the nations around it though. Turkey, Hungary, Russia and Constantinople all received an infusion of Khazar blood, and Russia received many of the Khazar Jews. In Russian folklore Khazar is called the 'Land of the Jews', and in the West the Sephardic Jews referred to the Khazar Jews as 'Red Jews' (possibly a reference to the slight reddish colour of the skin compared with the West or perhaps because of their alleged Edomite blood). During the time after the decline of the Mongols in the West, Poland-Lithuania was well-known for its strong Jewish population and its many synagogues. The last of the Khazar migrations over to the Poland-Lithuania area (beginning around AD 962) occurred in the 15th-16th Century.
    This evidence presents a strong, if somewhat controversial, case for Eastern European Jewry being of Turkic (Khazar) blood descent and not true Judahites. The Polish historian, Adam Vetulani, says on this matter: "Polish scholars agree that these oldest settlements were founded by Jewish emigres from the Khazar state and Russia, while the Jews from Southern and Western Europe began to arrive and settle only later...and that a certain proportion of the Jewish population (in earlier times, the main bulk) originated from the east, from the Khazar country, and later from Kievian Russia."

    AD 0987: Russians take Crimea from Khazars - Byzantium did nothing to help their old allies, the Khazars, as Russia was becoming a powerful and more friendly nation (despite intermittent clashes with the Eastern Empire); the Khazars were beginning to decline in their importance as far as Constantinople was concerned.

    AD 1016: A Byzantine-Russian army subdues Khazaria; Khazar migrations into Eastern Europe begin in earnest about this time

    AD 1245: Around this time the Mongols invade Khazaria and Khazar ceases as a nation

    The 'Jews' of Poland were most probably Khazars, and the Yiddish language probably came from a mix of the Khazar Hebrew in the Alpine regions rather than from Germany; linguistic studies lend weight to this view.

    Hope this helps. Now, back to Middle-earth...
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    No alot of first hand sources state that the Magyars did use armour for there horses.
    That's my point.
    For your units, you have even the first level horse archers the Néptörzs Magyar with "Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field." Most horse archers wouldn't have any horse armor at all, even many heavy cavalry.
    To have ever Magyar with horse armor would be impossible, due to the expense. Only the richest of the rich could afford full horse armor.

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    I put the maile option in simply as an option, which could easily be replaced by leather and metal coats in the asian style, but still, the Magyars were known to use horse armour.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    Yes. But, only a few, that is what I'm saying. There should be no horse armor of any kind except for the elite of the elite. No Horse nation, from Parthians to the Turks to the Mongols, or even the Byzantines or the Medieval Knights had all of their horses armoured. It was the opposite, only a few horses were armored.
    Most steppe warriors couldn't afford any sort of armor for themselves. The few that could often couldn't afford horse armor. Only a very few could afford any sort of horse armor.
    I'm not saying that none should have horse armour, but only the richest of the rich nobles.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  28. #28
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Magyar and Khazars

    The Jews are steppe People !!! seems odd to me . but how can I know , I am living in the holly land...
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  29. #29
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    No, some Khazars converted to Judiasim. What amount is unknown.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

  30. #30
    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Magyar and Khazars

    No I disagree, I beleiev that when the German chroniclers wrote of the Magyars using armour upon their horses, they would mean the majority, and yes the Byzantines used horse armour. What I meant by horse armour was quilted leather and other materials including some metal ring woven into the armour.

    You cannot compare the Magyars to Steppe peoples because they weren't typical Steppe peoples, they knew of and used irrigated argriculture, and unlike the Huns and Parthians, were known for their heavy cavalry.
    Last edited by Incongruous; 07-29-2005 at 05:59.

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