Can America compete?

[_Martyr_]

It may be ironic, but the situation pokes holes into the "free trade is bad for the Third World" theory.

No it doesnt. Since when do China and India represent the whole Third World? It would be a little off to label China Third World in the first place. India perhaps, but it is certainly not representative of the rest of this group of nations. On the contrary it is an exception. Most poor contries are getting poorer.

Because of free trade, people living in the Third World are now getting better jobs!

No they arent. A tiny segment of elite Chinese (its a lot of people when the numbers are taken from western engineers, but its tiny when compared with the number of Chinese people there are) are getting good jobs, imported from the West. The vast majority work in terrible conditions for pennies, exploited, making huge profits for Western Corporations.

Surely you don't think engineering and computing jobs are out "shittiest jobs."

Debatable...

And those are the jobs people are complaining about outsourcing.

No shit! Which idiot westerner would want to complain when the Chinese are doing all the shitty jobs and we have all the fun, interesting and stimulating jobs.

The workers in India and China getting those jobs are getting fractions of what their American counterparts used to make, but it is a whole hell of a lot better than making sneakers or farming.

The vast, vast majority of Chinese or Indians are NOT earning a good relative wage. The vast, vast majority do not work as outsourced engineers or computer scientists. Most survive on extremely unfair wages and have to endure terrible conditions. Doing exactly what you have said, making sneakers and textiles.

This is simply le'chatelier's principle in action. Things are out of equilibrium, the West has far too much, the rest have far too little. Slowly the system begings to decelerate for the US in favour of the Chinese.

And maybe the people who who are "suddenly call[ing] for a rule change when we start losing" really were never interested in free trade by itself to begin with. Maybe, just maybe, they were advocating what is best for their nation - and when what is best for their nation changes, they ask for a "rule change." Maybe I'm not enlightened like JAG's crowd, but I'm for doing what's best for the old US of A before doing what's best for everybody else.

We never really had much doubt about that...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

And our jobs are just going to India and China. And parts of China could be classified as the Third World, I think.

And if it wasn't for making sneakers, what would those people be doing? I'm curious. If there were better jobs, wouldn't they take them?

[Azi Tohak]

Ooo...yeah...wallow in that self-loathing Martyr...yeah...you know you like it don't you...oh yeah...

And what exactly makes you worthy of preaching about the evils of using cheap labor to us? Are you going to ship your job (assuming Pinkos such as yourself have one) to another country to help make up for decades of 'evil Western influence'?

So the Indians and Chinese are getting smarter. BFD. I think we need to fix our #*$ school system so this generation in schools stays smarter than they are. And no, I don't believe it is possible for everyone to profit and be happy. There are winners and there are losers on Earth. Been that way for thousands of years. There is no way it is going to change.

Azi

[_Martyr_]

Ooo...yeah...wallow in that self-loathing Martyr...yeah...you know you like it don't you...oh yeah...

Self loathing?? Lol. Anything but. You'll find its called humility and having something called a social conscience. Something that is seen as a virtue in other parts of the world, but evidently is seen as a weakness in your particular world view.

And what exactly makes you worthy of preaching about the evils of using cheap labor to us? Are you going to ship your job (assuming Pinkos such as yourself have one) to another country to help make up for decades of 'evil Western influence'?

Ill just say, watch your tone. As it happens Im in exactly the same situation as you are. Engineering student. I finnished my LC (Irish A levels) as the highest scoring guy in my year, got an entrance exhibition to the best Uni in the country, and yes, when Im finnished my degree I have every reason to believe that I will be employed. Thank you very much.

I dont need a liscence from you or anyone else to point out the gross imbalances of the new-liberal economic model. Thats the bloody point of a discussion forum. To express a view on a particular topic. As for exporting my own job? I would rather help build up the economies of the Third world so that they are sustainable and can produce their own employment, industry and prosperity, without having to undercut us, or be enslaved to our corperate greed.

So the Indians and Chinese are getting smarter. BFD. I think we need to fix our #*$ school system so this generation in schools stays smarter than they are. And no, I don't believe it is possible for everyone to profit and be happy. There are winners and there are losers on Earth. Been that way for thousands of years. There is no way it is going to change..

The invisible hand will go the way of profit, remember, this invisible hand we so much adore because it has made us so very rich. Well, now its turning on us and this century China will emerge as the dominant power. In the beginning, when corporations moved their production to the cheap labour markets of the Third World, it suited us down to the ground, cheaper products. We praise the virtues of the Free Market and how great it works. (because it was a sweet deal and we were coming out way on top) Now when this lag catches up with us, and our middle class jobs begin to be exported, we suddenly have a problem with it. There is the irony. We now hear calls for protection. We were the winners and still are, but we wont be in the future. They are on the way up, we are on the way down.

[Red Harvest]

I scanned the article before seeing this thread. The points that I noted were ones that I have been making unsuccessfully for some time: a lack of basic research funding is the source of the problem. 30 straight years of declining R&D is catching up with us. The conservative/guardian types running our companies (and our govt.) only see short term dollars. That means they will support development because they can see the economics for the end product, but not research...but without research, you don't get to development. Never mind...that's a decade or so out...and they need the profits today...BANG...they just shot themselves in the corporate temple. They ain't exactly the smartest folks out there, but they have connections and they work as a self policing pack--"please get all of your employees back in the box." Good luck in trying to get through to them.

The math/science education push is misplaced. What good is a good math/science education if the tech jobs and tech research are moving elsewhere? If the industries I serve don't want to do research and development in the U.S. anymore, and the govt doesn't have much interest in priming the pump, then what good is my education doing for me if I want to live here? Not a lot. Rather than working on the supply side, we need to be focusing on demand. Without the research side, the edge is eventually lost, and with it, those high paying jobs that demand a good education and out of the box thinking.

[Azi Tohak]

Sorry Red...I'm not getting it...you think the science and math push is misplaced...but isn't that who performs the R&D?

Azi

[_Martyr_]

He's saying that if the payrollers of the R&D, the corporate bosses arent prepared to fund mid to long term research, then it doesn't help if you've got an extremely well educated population as there wont be many jobs.