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Thread: Alexander not undeafeted

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Alexander not undeafeted

    Well there was a thread here about the greatest general and steppe said he lost some battles, but he couldnt remember them

    I(think), I found the answers.

    Turns out he never lost a major battle, but he did lose some small skirmishes,

    One of which was on his journey to Persepolis,

    and the pther one was against some horse archers near the Caspian Sea.

    Any other info on this.


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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Alexander's reputation as an undefeated general is, admittedly, overstated. Those who made that statement failed to qualify it with 'I mean, undefeated in all MAJOR ENGAGEMENTS'. Alexander lost a lot of small battles, some under his direct command, and some under the command of subcommanders. Like when Sogdiana (or Ecbatana) rebelled Alex made the decision to send 2000 men and 1000 horse which were promptly annihilated. He also lost out in a lot of the tribal wars. But he lost battles and won the war, so I guess in a sense we can call him undefeated if we look in the broader view of things.


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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Agreed .
    he lost it in India .
    now I am expecting...
    Last edited by caesar44; 07-26-2005 at 22:40.
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Where did he lose in india. Losing many troops isnt losing.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Caesar... come on man. "And to think he was not a Greek".

    Ok, put your money where your mouth is now. WHY was he not Greek. And don't say because he was "Macedonian", because by that logic Pericles wasn't Greek either, he was "Athenian". I could go on for hours proving you wrong, but I'm pretty sure those who know better regarding the ancient Macedonians don't want me wasting their time and forum space, and those who refuse to admit that they are wrong won't learn no matter how much evidence you give them. The truth will always be known, it's just a shame that a good portion of the masses (such as yourself) think they know what they are saying and stir up useless arguments.

    But anyways, back to the topic of the thread... no, he did not lose in India. He won, but he didn't exactly come out with the greatest win, he lost a lot of men, there is no denying that. The only loss Alexander faced in India was losing the morale of his men. You can only push an army so far before they get sick of you and your (seemlingly) selfish ways.

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Uh oh, time for the fanboys to come defend Alexander's honor.

    Well let me do the honors of beggining:

    My hero,



    my GOD, Alexander



    The impregnable greek macedonian phallanx:



    And now that the idolatry has finished, time for me to do the usual routine;

    Alexander never lost

    Alexander never lost

    Alexander never lost

    "If you repeat a lie long enough people will accept it as fact" - Goebbels

    Seriously though, history says he never lost, that's the best we got. Arrian never mentions a loss, and neither does Plutarch to the best of my knowledge. If you wish to add something, then please provide a link.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    I just know that I heard he lost to Scythians, Sakae or similar Iranian nomads. Not sure where I heard it, however.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Ya thats the battle near the caspian i was talking about, but i saw it at another forum, so i cant just provide alink to that.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    The truth will always be known, it's just a shame that a good portion of the masses (such as yourself) think they know what they are saying and stir up useless arguments.

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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    [QUOTE=Elias71]Caesar... come on man. "And to think he was not a Greek".

    I could go on for hours proving you wrong, but I'm pretty sure those who know better regarding the ancient Macedonians don't want me wasting their time and forum space, and those who refuse to admit that they are wrong won't learn no matter how much evidence you give them. The truth will always be known, it's just a shame that a good portion of the masses (such as yourself) think they know what ...



    Hehehehehehe
    We are the "masses" and you are the aristocracy !!! yeh !!! my God........
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Alexander lost near the Caspian, agreed. He was completely unused to the Scythian tactics. But he eventually shaped up and developed tactics with his combined-arms army that enabled him to beat the Scythians at their own game, trapping them and slaughtering quite a number of them by 'hugging' the HA to his phalanx with his cavalry. That last victory after all the defeats forced the Scythians to make peace. I emulated his tactics as Macedon in RTW and was stunned by his genius.

    So my point stands: he was defeatable in battle but unbeaten in campaign.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm an Alexander fanboy too (which is why I wince when I see how they mangled Alexander's history in the movie even though the armies were oh-so-cool) but I am first and foremost also a historian and I am not so blind as to say Alexander never lost without first qualifying my statement with the realities of history.


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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Can anyone provide further details on this battle by the Caspian? Perhaps a link to the actual primary sources? Rufus or others perhaps?

    Its not that I'm doubting he lost, but I'd like to have all the facts and make the judgement for myself.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    There are no details I have seen except for a record I have come across in 'The Generalship of Alexander the Great' by J F C Fuller (my primary source on Alexander's campaigns) which deals with all of Alexander's major campaigns and small wars, with diagrams. It is mentioned that Alexander's phalanx got the worse of the engagements with the Scythians (a rebellion, if I remember correctly) and that it took some time before he beat them. But I will check up again because I strongly suspect the veracity of my facts.


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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    There has been enough debate in a few different threads as to whether Alexander was defeated or not. It would be nice to see documentation on this to put the issue to bed. Of course, knowing the nature of history, the documentation might not settle anything.
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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    true, true :) If anything this Caspian battle is obscure, so I doubt we will find any definitive accounts of it apart from, like, Livy or someone, and maybe even then only a passing mention since no one wanted to trumpet Alex's defeats.


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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Well it would stand to reason that alexander's defeats wouldn't be talked about. I mean what sounds better a general that one most of the time or a general that never lost?

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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Open your minds , part 1 -


    The Greek Accounts and Histories

    As popularly believed the source materials for Alexander (c.October 356 BCE to June 13, 323 ) is scanty and much of his history has been written based on fables and secondary sources of later period. Scholars have pointed out this fact. While discussing about the “Records of Alexander”, Greene2 notes that, : ”..the really authentic records are so scanty”. There are no contemporary authorities for the history of Alexander. All written so-called histories are based on secondary or even third sources of much later period.

    The western historians have depended upon –

    Arrian (c.90-170 or 96-160 CE)’s Anabasis onf Alexander,

    Quintus Curtius (date uncertain, though western scholars assign 1st to 5th centuries of CE),

    Plutarch (c.46-100 CE),

    Justin (c.2nd century of CE) and

    5. Diodorus (c.first century of CE).

    All these five have made use of earlier writers whose works are reportedly lost or not available, i.e, the sources are unauthentic and unverifiable. They were writing after 300 to 800 years after Alexander. And the writings of them do not agree with any matter, as published and pointed out by the westerners themselves. There have been hundreds of legends and fables about “Alexander”. After loosing all secondary-secondary sources, how the sketchy details transformed into history is seen from the books published by the western scholars:

    Sl.No Author Name of the book Year of publication Remarks
    1 Schwanbeck, German Indika 1846 Though Indica is attributed to the authorship of Megathenes, who supposedly visited the Court of Chandragupta, his work is not found, as it was lost 2000 years back. The reconstructed or produced work is of recent origin.
    2 Mc Crindle Ancient India as described by Megasthenes and Arrian 1877 It is again a compilation of scrap writings obtained from the different secondary sources.
    3 Mc Crindle The Invasion of India by Alexander the Great 1893 It is a compilation of scrap writin gs obtained from the different secondary sources to prove that Alexander invaded India.
    4 Hogarth Philp and Alexander of Macedon 1897
    5 B. I. Wheeler Alexander the Great 1900
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Granted. But those who are talking about this Caspian battle surely have some sources. What are they?
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Gah, I have no idea what the sources are, which is quite agrivating to me.

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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Gah, I have no idea what the sources are, which is quite agrivating to me.
    Spitâmaneh (Spitamenes) was the rebel commander and Arrian was one source and perhaps Quintus Curtius (not sure)
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    Granted. But those who are talking about this Caspian battle surely have some sources. What are they?

    Im trying to find it, but i got my info from some other internet boards, so not exactly a good source.

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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Part II -

    No Historical Records Exist For Alexander

    No historical records exist for Alexander and even contemporary evidences of any category are found as all were lost long back, as has been accepted by the historians themselves. Robin Lane Fox, gives the following details:

    1. More than twenty contemporaries wrote books on Alexander and not one of whom survives.

    2. They are known by quotations from later authors, not one of whom preserved the original wording.

    3. These later authors are themselves only known from the manuscripts of even later copyists and in the four main sources these manuscripts are not complete.

    4. The most detailed history goes back to only one manuscript, whose text cannot be checked.

    5. Another much used has often been copied illegibly.

    6. Alexander left no informal letter, which is genuine beyond dispute, and the two known extracts from his formal documents both concern points of politics.

    7. The written evidence for Alexander is scarce and often peculiar.

    Thus, for the existence of Alexander –

    1. No contemporary evidence is available.

    2. All the so-called contemporary writings about him were reportedly lost irrecoverably.

    3. Even the available secondary sources compiled from the fragmentary sources belong to later period.

    4. There is nothing mentioned in the Indian sources of any period. In fact, the ancient texts have not even whispered about his name. But, he is made “the Great” only on his alleged invasion and conquest of India.
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  23. #23

    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    alexander attacked the entrenched persians at the persian gates and was 'repulsed' and however else you want to label it. he led in person, not a subordinate. it was not a major battle, and he easily overcame it by ouflanking the persians so whether it was a 'defeat' or not depends on your perspective.

    http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?ParaID=98
    indeed

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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Persian gates was two engagements; he lost the first one because of a frontal attack, and won the second one because some local showed him a path to use to rear-attack the gates.

    If the commander was Spitamenes then I know which battle you're talking about. I believe my book has it, the one by JFC Fuller. Will go check it out.


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    Member Member Mujalumbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    OK.

    So, when secondary-secondary sources (Arrian, Plutarch, et. al.) are corroborated by a contemporary source (the Astronomical Diaries make mention of Alexander and the Battle of Gaugamela) and are further corroborated by cities bearing his name, you can conclude that...

    Alexander the Great didn't exist?

    Wait, I got a better one: there's zero archealogical evidence that sarissa existed, so obviously they didn't fight in phalanx formation and must've used sharpened sticks and threw stones. Or, how about the NASA shuttle launch yesterday? There's photographic evidence of it taking off, but where is the proof it made it into space?! Have you SEEN the curvature of the earth? No? Well it must be flat, then!
    "Fear is the enemy of logic. There is no more debilitating, crushing, self-defeating, sickening thing in the world--to an individual or to a nation."
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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Let's ease up on the sarcasm please.
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    Member Member Mujalumbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    I apologize for the inflammatory tone of my previous post. It was unwarranted, and does not contribue to meaningful discussion of the topic at hand.

    I will simply re-iterate my point without the caustic sarcasm:
    The secondary sources we do have for Alexander the Great (Arrian, Plutarch, et. al.) are corroborated by a contemporary source, the Astronomical Diaries, which specifically mention Alexander, and Darius losing the Battle of Gaugamela. Further, geographical locations, specifically the city of Alexandria, continue to corroborate the sources we do have for the existence of Alexander the Great.

    Thus, despite the lack of surviving, first-hand accounts of Alexander's accomplishments, the evidence is weighted towards his existence.
    "Fear is the enemy of logic. There is no more debilitating, crushing, self-defeating, sickening thing in the world--to an individual or to a nation."
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    Mujalumbo

    there's zero archealogical evidence that sarissa existed
    I realize you were aiming for sarcasm, but actually there is archeological evidence for the Sarissa. Both Sarissa heads (points?) and butt spikes have been recovered from both the Macedonian tombs at Vergina and the battle field of Chaeronea.

    The Sarissa heads and butt spikes are easily differentiated from their equivalent pieces derived from hoplite spears (they are substantially larger). They only occur during or after the Time of Philip II. In other words the Archaeology is in very nice accord with the historical literary sources.
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    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    It is so hard to just open your mind ? just facts man...if it is to hard for you , take a glass of watter , btw , 3,000,000,000 people are believing in God and never saw him , ha?

    Part III -

    Alexander, the name

    The writers of Alexander have been silent about the origin of it. Though dictionaries mention different forms of Alexander they do not explain how they originate.

    alixandre,

    alisaundre,

    alysaunder,

    allisunder,

    alysunder,

    alesunder,

    alessundere, etc.,


    In fact, such forms are reportedly found in the books written about the Romance of Alexander. After that the word Alexander is derived from Alexandrine or Alexandrin means of doubtful origin. Alexander was in fact not the First one, but the Third ruler of Macedonia. Alexander I (c.507-463 BCE) and Alexander II (c.369-367 BCE) were there earlier ruling Macedonia. In fact, Alexander had a son called Alexander. Even the historians and epigraphists have not been specific about the meaning. In the Indian context, they have made many guess work without any evidences, as the Greek writers mention words Alexandrum, Androcottus, Androcottos, Xandrames, Angrammes, Ganderatai and so on similar to each other.

    1. The myth of “Chandragupta” meerting “Alexader” started with Plutarch, who refers to a meeting between “Alexandrum” and “Androcottos”.

    2. Justin reads “Nandrum” in the place of “Alexandrum”.

    3. “Androcottos” can be anybody, as andro = male, prefix is common in Greek, e.g, Andromeda etc.

    4. Curtius refers to one “Agrammes” as “the present King” ruling at Palibothra / Pataliputra etc., which scholars identify as Nanda or Chandragupta.

    5. Diodorus refers to one “Xandrames” as “the present King” ruling at Palibothra / Pataliputra etc., which scholars identify as Nanda or Chandragupta.

    6. Plutrach refers to another King “Gandaritai” ruling India.

    7. Chandragupta is also identified or equated with different expressions

    Sandrakoptas,

    Sandracottas,

    Andracottas,

    Androcottus,

    Chandrairi,

    Pradamsana,

    Vrishla,

    Xandrammes


    Therefore, which name denotes whom or of whom who is Chandragupta etc., would be only wild goose chase and not of any historical pursuit.

    Again about the word Alikasundara as found in the Asokan Rock Edict No.XIII, the western scholars are not anonymous:

    1. Fleet4 and others identify him as Alexander of Corinth (c.252-244 BCE).

    2. Buhler5 identifies with Alexander of Epirus, who died between 262 and 258 BCE relying upon Lassen.

    3. AP.Dascalakis6, a professor of University of Athens opines that –

    the names like Alexandros…………….are purely Greek, and at the same time points out that certain names including Alexandros are obviously borrowed from pre-Greek mythology.

    Therefore, whom exactly, the words Alexander and its forms referred to are still in doubt and not final. All these go to prove that the Greek classical accounts complied from different secondary sources and available today not at all reliable. Incidentally, an important point arises here is the famous of Chandragupta among the Greek writers. It is not known as to why so much of importance is given to him, that too, when he was a child or boy, when Alexander was reportedly on the banks of Hydaspes or Acesines very far away from Magadha!.

    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  30. #30
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alexander not undeafeted

    So the Selekuids and Ptolomies magically apeared in Asia and Egypt?
    I am the first to doubt ancient and Medieval historians, in particular Greeks and Romans, but I don't see how Alexander didn't exist.
    Last edited by Steppe Merc; 07-28-2005 at 21:39.

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
    Grateful Dead, "Ripple"

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