EU army

[Al Khalifah]

The mongol invasion, The Collaspe of the Roman Empire, the treat of Napealon, the Cold War, - several little historical tidbits that can be used to back up my sacrastic comment

Is that what passes for teaching history in the US these days? Your argument is spurious at best and nonsense at worst failing to take into account that the majority of the populations mentioned merged into the European culture and effectively became European themselves. The Mongols did not pass Hungary, so they hardly 'conquered' Europe. The Russians are European. If you're not counting the slavs and eastern Europe as European, then the sucess of the Mongol invasion against Europe argument dies a death. Napoleon was defeated by other European powers (internal strife settled). The Cold War - Russians.
By your theory, the Americans have never sucessfully defended their nation either, since the native Americans were defeated and the current rulers of the US are not native Americans. Is there even a native American congressman or senator? It was the Europeans that won the war of sucession against other Europeans.

the advance of Islam by the sword

Oh dear, a tiny area of land near Greece is owned by an Islamic power. Europe is surely doomed. Shall we ignore the Reconquista here?

By all means, block caustic comments, but try not to make such bizarre accusations. Europe is the continent that has made modern history and shaped the world.

[Redleg]

Is that what passes for teaching history in the US these days?

Nope it sure doesn't - however it does pass for a sarcastic blast at Europeans in the same manner in which they wish to blast at America.

Your argument is spurious at best and nonsense at worst failing to take into account that the majority of the populations mentioned merged into the European culture and effectively became European themselves. The Mongols did not pass Hungary, so they hardly 'conquered' Europe. The Russians are European. If you're not counting the slavs and eastern Europe as European, then the sucess of the Mongol invasion against Europe argument dies a death. Napoleon was defeated by other European powers (internal strife settled). The Cold War - Russians.

No, its completely sarcastic - just like the comments that were stated by others. However its not a spurious arguement nor is it complete nonsense. Since I didnt say conquor as your attempting to do so in your counter, your actually being a hypocrit in your attempt at counter my sarcastic comment. The statement that spured the sarcastic response was. Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent.
That statement does not entail only outside invasions - but all conflicts on the European Continent.

The mongols halted their advance - and became Europeans after their attack, their advance, and yes even taken parts of Europe before they became part of European culture themselves. The people of Europe did not defeat them or push them out of Europe as the orginal poster would have you believe in his statement.

Russia - was the cold war - Europe did not defend itself during the Cold War - but had a lot of help from the United States. I guess in your attempt to defend the European contient - you failed to understand the sarcastic response. Nor do you know history as well as you think you do - and you attempted to be sacrastic with your little comment - showing your own lack of knowledge.

Napolean - conquored a lot of Europe and then got beat - not because of some massive uprising by Europeans - but because he over-extended himself, got beat in Russia by the winter, (killing a lot of his troops) and a few other factors - however it wasn't because of some neblous thing like someone alluded to now is it? Especially given that others joined in with Napolean

By your theory, the Americans have never sucessfully defended their nation either, since the native Americans were defeated and the current rulers of the US are not native Americans. Is there even a native American congressman or senator? It was the Europeans that won the war of sucession against other Europeans.

Again not a theory at all - it seem Europeans like to make accusations about America - be sarcastic about America - but don't like the game played back at you. However lets explore your little attempt at BS here. The United States has indeed successfully defended itself - just like Europe has defended itself several times - however once again Europe has never done this Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent especially given that many times its Europeans that have threatened themselves, and several times in recent history - its been outside peoples that have rescued you poor Europeans from yourselves, the Canadians, the Austrialians, many of the nations of South America, India, Africa and other nations all outside of the European COntinent coming to save you warlike Europeans from yourselves.

Hell look at WW2 - where many European nations not only bent over for Hilter's Germany - they even joined Germany in its war. Yes how great Europe is in Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent Laughable and deserving of the ridicule that I have given that statement. Just as laughable as your attempt is also.

Oh dear, a tiny area of land near Greece is owned by an Islamic power. Europe is surely doomed. Shall we ignore the Reconquista here?

Try reading your own history of Europe - Most of Spain was at one time in the hands of the Islam conquores - who did so not by peaceful spread of the religion but by the sword. Again you Europeans did not mass to defeat the invasion - your ancestors allowed something else to happen instead. ANd then lets talk about Bosnia and Kosovo - another situation where you fine outstanding Europeans refused to do anything to help a threat within your own continent.

By all means, block caustic comments, but try not to make such bizarre accusations. Europe is the continent that has made modern history and shaped the world.

Bah - when you make the same arguement to Europeans who make such comments about other parts of the world and other peoples - then you can lecture me on not doing so - until then, try countering the caustic sarcasm with logic - instead of your own distorted verision of history. Hell you didn't even understand the comments before you jumped on the lets defend Europe from the outsider. How ironic is that.

[Al Khalifah]

Russia - was the cold war - Europe did not defend itself during the Cold War - but had a lot of help from the United States.

Perhaps Britain could have provided a more effective defense for the rest of Europe if America hadn't stripped it of its capacity to do so by wanting pay-back for the assistance America gave in WW2. I fail to remember when Europe was actually attacked by the Soviets during the Cold War.

Nor do you know history as well as you think you do - and you attempted to be sacrastic with your little comment - showing your own lack of knowledge.

Where did that come from?

Napolean - conquored a lot of Europe and then got beat - not because of some massive uprising by Europeans - but because he over-extended himself, got beat in Russia by the winter, (killing a lot of his troops) and a few other factors

Such as.... the British defeating Napoleons navy preventing him from establishing a European trade hegemony or the British invading Spain. And I still don't see how the Russians aren't Europeans.

The United States has indeed successfully defended itself - just like Europe has defended itself several times - however once again Europe has never done this

Wait a minute, read that one by me again: Europe has sucesfully defended itself several teams, however Europe has never done this? Well, way to contradict yourself within one sentance.

especially given that many times its Europeans that have threatened themselves, and several times in recent history

So the American Civil War didn't happen?

its been outside peoples that have rescued you poor Europeans from yourselves, the Canadians, the Austrialians, many of the nations of South America, India, Africa and other nations all outside of the European COntinent coming to save you warlike Europeans from yourselves.

Wait a minute, what did Canada, Australia, India and many African nations have in common a while ago? Oh yes, they were part of the British Empire and Commonwealth. It would've been pretty stupid if Britain hadn't drawn on such a resource in a time of need to defend itself. What would be the point in having an empire if you allow the motherland to be captured?

[Redleg]

Perhaps Britain could have provided a more effective defense for the rest of Europe if America hadn't stripped it of its capacity to do so by wanting pay-back for the assistance America gave in WW2. I fail to remember when Europe was actually attacked by the Soviets during the Cold War.

You would be incorrect - the Marshall Plan had a lot to do with what was going on also. And that plan was solely funded by the United States.

Where did that come from?

I fight fire with fire Is that what passes for teaching history in the US these days? Your argument is spurious at best and nonsense at worst failing

Such as.... the British defeating Napoleons navy preventing him from establishing a European trade hegemony or the British invading Spain. And I still don't see how the Russians aren't Europeans.

Never said Russians were not Europeans - once again the statement made was Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent. Several times in recent History - Europeans have been their own worst enemies.

Wait a minute, read that one by me again: Europe has sucesfully defended itself several teams, however Europe has never done this? Well, way to contradict yourself within one sentance.

Again try reading the sentence again - this might help you a little - this is what Europe has never done. Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent.

So the American Civil War didn't happen?

And the United States won did it not. Again the comment was direct at Europe not the United States - I could say the exact same thing about the United States - but that is not the subject of the discussion. Try staying focused on the subject at hand - it will help you counter the arguement. Again I have never stated the United States has done this either - Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent. Just insert the United States for Europe.

Wait a minute, what did Canada, Australia, India and many African nations have in common a while ago? Oh yes, they were part of the British Empire and Commonwealth. It would've been pretty stupid if Britain hadn't drawn on such a resource in a time of need to defend itself. What would be the point in having an empire if you allow the motherland to be captured?

And again the colonies were not Europeans. Its a simple little word game, and one you which you trapped yourself into with your kneejerk defense to my sarcastic comments.

Its a little game you Europeans like to play on us Americans - but it seems you don't like it played on yourselves or your continent now does it?

Its really rather simple english that I use - the arguement is not all that hard to follow - unless your just doing a knee jerk defense of Europe.

Europe and you Europeans have never done this in your entire history Every time Europe was threatened, Europeans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent. And in fact Europe has been more warlike in the last 250 years of history then the United States.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The only thing I can see coming out of this is an EU army that sits in its bases doing squat - because of the diverging interests of member states. It'll also cost money, so more taxes for you poor Europeans. And more political hay for anti-EU politicians across the continent.

Have fun!

[Redleg]

And just to show you that a Native American did defeat the United States and retained his tribal lands - even though the United States later violated the treaty. A short bio on the one of the men I consider important in American History.

Makhpiya-Luta
(1822-1909)
As a warrior and a statesman, Red Cloud's success in confrontations with the United States government marked him as one of the most important Lakota leaders of the nineteenth century.

Although the details of his early life are unclear, Red Cloud was born near the forks of the Platte River, near what is now North Platte, Nebraska. His mother was an Oglala and his father, who died in Red Cloud's youth, was a Brulé Red Cloud was raised in the household of his maternal uncle, Chief Smoke.

Much of Red Cloud's early life was spent at war, first and most often against the neighboring Pawnee and Crow, at times against other Oglala. In 1841 he killed one of his uncle's primary rivals, an event which divided the Oglala for the next fifty years. He gained enormous prominence within the Lakota nation for his leadership in territorial wars against the Pawnees, Crows, Utes and Shoshones.

Beginning in 1866, Red Cloud orchestrated the most successful war against the United States ever fought by an Indian nation. The army had begun to construct forts along the Bozeman Trail, which ran through the heart of Lakota territory in present-day Wyoming to the Montana gold fields from Colorado's South Platte River. As caravans of miners and settlers began to cross the Lakota's land, Red Cloud was haunted by the vision of Minnesota's expulsion of the Eastern Lakota in 1862 and 1863. So he launched a series of assaults on the forts, most notably the crushing defeat of Lieutenant Colonel William Fetterman's column of eighty men just outside Fort Phil Kearny, Wyoming, in December of 1866. The garrisons were kept in a state of exhausting fear of further attacks through the rest of the winter.

Red Cloud's strategies were so successful that by 1868 the United States government had agreed to the Fort Laramie Treaty. The treaty's remarkable provisions mandated that the United States abandon its forts along the Bozeman Trail and guarantee the Lakota their possession of what is now the Western half of South Dakota, including the Black Hills, along with much of Montana and Wyoming.

The peace, of course, did not last. Custer's 1874 Black Hills expedition again brought war to the northern Plains, a war that would mean the end of independent Indian nations. For reasons which are not entirely clear, Red Cloud did not join Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull and other war leaders in the Lakota War of 1876-77. However, after the military defeat of the Lakota nation, Red Cloud continued to fight for the needs and autonomy of his people, even if in less obvious or dramatic ways than waging war.

Throughout the 1880's Red Cloud struggled with Pine Ridge Indian Agent Valentine McGillycuddy over the distribution of government food and supplies and the control of the Indian police force. He was eventually successful in securing McGillycuddy's dismissal. Red Cloud cultivated contacts with sympathetic Eastern reformers, especially Thomas A. Bland, and was not above pretending for political effect to be more acculturated to white ways than he actually was.

Fearing the Army's presence on his reservation, Red Cloud refrained from endorsing the Ghost Dance movement, and unlike Sitting Bull and Big Foot, he escaped the Army's occupation unscathed. Thereafter he continued to fight to preserve the authority of chiefs such as himself, opposed leasing Lakota lands to whites, and vainly fought allotment of Indian reservations into individual tracts under the 1887 Dawes Act. He died in 1909, but his long and complex life endures as testimony to the variety of ways in which Indians resisted their conquest.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/i_r/redcloud.htm

Notice the highlighted sentence - it kind of demonstrates that your statement of

By your theory, the Americans have never sucessfully defended their nation either, since the native Americans were defeated and the current rulers of the US are not native Americans. Is there even a native American congressman or senator? It was the Europeans that won the war of sucession against other Europeans.

Oh and I just read your last sentence - again you would be incorrect - Native Americans also fought in the Civil War - to include a Regiment of Cherokee fighting for the South. And it seems you discount the service of serval black regiments that fought and died for the North in the conflict. Those who fought in the Civil War - while there were some regiments of immirgants formed to fight for the Union - it was primarily fought by men who were born in the United States. However nice attempt at word play there.

Like I have already pointed out - I never said Every time America was threatened, Americans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent.

And you attempted to accuse me of Your argument is spurious at best and nonsense at worst failing to take into account

Like I have already stated - I made a sarcastic rebuttal to the ridiculous and completely untrue claim that ]Every time America was threatened, Americans achieved to surpass their internal fights and to protect the continent.

And yes indeed Native Americans have been in the Senate

Native American Indian:

Charles Curtis (R-Kansas), 1907-13; 1915-29 (Kaw)

Robert Owen (D-Oklahoma), 1907-1925 (Cherokee)

Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-Colorado), 1993-2005 (Northern Cheyenne)