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Thread: Fear in the city

  1. #1
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Fear in the city

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...535944,00.html

    Fear in the city

    After the July 7 bombings, much was made of London's defiance towards the terrorists. But today, following another anxious week, the capital's mood seems less sure. Can things ever return to normal, wonders Tim Dowling.

    Tuesday July 26, 2005
    The Guardian

    I can pretty well pinpoint the moment when my own spirit of defiance started to fade. It was on Saturday morning. I was with the dog in the park opposite our house, chatting to a woman with a boxer while watching two uniformed policeman comb the undergrowth. It's not unusual to see police in Little Wormwood Scrubs; the place has of late become something of a centre of excellence for delinquents. It is unusual, however, to be ordered to leave the area by a plainclothes officer citing the presence of a suspicious device. It is strange to watch the whole park being festooned in police tape, to see cops with machine-guns and earpieces standing on the corner. A huge security cordon was thrown up, with our house inside it.

    At this point I was still feeling rather reassured by what I assumed was a ridiculous, if understandable, overreaction on the part of the police. People set fire to stolen scooters in our park, but they do not plants bombs there. We stood out on the front step in order to see what was happening, only to be told by a policeman that we must remain indoors. He was clearly looking for a phrase to describe the seriousness of the situation without telling us any more than he needed to. The words he chose were: "It's got nails in." That was when my defiance evaporated.

    The spirit of the Blitz was invoked shortly after the bombings of Thursday July 7, and it seemed to resonate immediately. Those directly affected by the attacks - the injured, the emergency services, the families of those killed or hurt - did indeed behave with courageous stoicism, and Londoners took a little reflected pride in their dignity. Mayor Ken Livingstone, a divisive figure at the best of times, made an emotional statement which perfectly captured the mood of the capital, even though he was in Singapore. "Londoners will not be divided by the cowardly attack," he said, his voice angry and raw. "They will stand together in solidarity ... and that is why I'm proud to be the mayor of that city."

    The next day people made their way to work, an act that was to become imbued with meaning. In different circumstances a business-as-usual approach to such a tragedy might have seemed callous, but those deeply affected by the bombings and those who were merely inconvenienced (I count myself firmly among the latter; I was in Paris) were united behind the idea that getting on with life sent the terrorists the right message. The buses filled up again. On Monday, Livingstone took the tube to work as normal, elevating the grim grind of the daily commute into a provocative political statement.

    At the same time, the hastily set-up website Werenotafraid.com became a clearinghouse for various expressions of defiance, an almost direct response to the terrorists' online claim of responsibility, which asserted that "Britain is now burning with fear". Some of the postings on werenotafraid.com were moving, some were mawkish, a few strayed into reckless bravado, but the overall tone was one of simple solidarity, amplified by the huge number of respondents.

    And in London things certainly seemed to be getting back to normal. Tourist numbers began to recover. Some 20,000 people turned up to the National Gallery's Stubbs exhibition last Wednesday. Despite stern warnings from the security services about the possibility of more attacks, it seemed like it would be a good long while before terrorists dared to test our vigilance again.

    The second attack changed all that. While the display of defiance probably peaked at the impromptu street party in Shepherds Bush Green, which was brought to a halt after a bomb failed to go off on a nearby tube train, in retrospect this seemed like a slightly giddy reaction to what turned out to be an extremely close call. The half-certainties we had let ourselves adopt were shattered. We had hoped that Britain contained a fairly limited supply of home-grown suicide bombers; it was even possible that the first four had been tricked into sacrificing their lives. We can discount that idea now.

    Since Thursday, carrying on as normal has become rather more difficult. No one was injured in the attacks, but I know people in Shepherds Bush who weren't allowed to go home for two days. In Kilburn, in Tulse Hill and Stockwell - parts of London previously enveloped in the safety of shaggy anonymity - residents found the anti-terrorist operation had arrived on their doorsteps. If most of us have thus far escaped tragedy, few Londoners remain untouched by fear. On Friday, the police shot an innocent Brazilian man in Stockwell station, and the potential for disaster expanded. It's not enough to spot terrorists on the tube, you must take active steps to avoid looking like one. Watching events unfold on television (interspersed with long, defiant stretches of cricket) I had the sense of things getting unpleasantly close to home, and that was before someone left a nail bomb in the park where my children play. I know this hardly compares to the Blitz, in which 43,000 Londoners perished, but I still find the idea of exhibiting pluck in the circumstances oddly draining. I feel lucky, but I don't feel plucky.

    When Inter Milan tried to cancel its UK tour last week, Livingstone's outraged response rang curiously hollow. "The terrorists, I am sure, will be celebrating their decision," he said. "We cannot allow the terrorists to change the way we live or they will be very close to their aim." Who in London hasn't changed the way they live, or had it changed for them? I don't know about you, but yesterday I had to go through a police checkpoint to buy milk. People have stopped taking rucksacks out with them. They've stopped riding on the top deck of the bus. When it was first reported that bicycle sales had doubled in the capital, the statistic was interpreted as a plucky response to a badly damaged transport network - people were getting to and from work any way they could - but it may well turn out that a certain percentage of commuters have forsaken the tube permanently.

    On Sunday morning, we were woken by the muffled crump of a controlled explosion. Although the bomb has been taken away, as I write this the police are still here and the park is still closed. I don't know whether I want them to stay or not. For the moment I live in unprecedented safety - a veritable gated community - but I must admit I'm now afraid; afraid that another attack is imminent, afraid of the idea of 3,000 armed police on the streets, afraid that London will never quite be the same again, afraid that my children will find out how afraid I am (don't worry, they'll never read this far). Carrying on as normal seems less politically freighted than it did two weeks ago, not least because it's no longer really possible, but you can't say that the terrorists have won just because the cops won't let the postman deliver my Amazon order.
    He is right, there is a fear in the city, public transport travel is well down and people are steering clear of the inner city areas and people generally are far more jumpy. I have been on the underground two times since the bombings and both times my train was heavily delayed because of 'bomb scares' at different stations. You can also see it in people on the bus and train, they are very nervous and twitchy.

    That also extends to me, yesterday I was on a bus, on the top deck at the back, as normal, reading the Guardian and the whole rest of the top deck was clear. I had a glance over the paper and I saw a muslim looking bloke coming towards me with a bag much like has been used in the attacks and he sat right next to me - even though the whole top bus was empty. For a few seconds I sh*t myself, I bet he could have seen my eyes pop out of my head, it must have been really bad for him because there was no reason for him to be suspected, I then proceeded to feel really bad after I had a quick rational think of the situation and a deep breath. I was even more ashamed of my initial thoughts and reaction when I saw the turban - well the smaller turban version young Sikhs wear - on his head; he wasn't even a muslim. Shame on me really, I felt really bad so I decieded to talk to him - he was a really nice bloke - to try and make myself feeling better, more than anything.

    Anyway, funnily enough I was reading the article I just posted at the time, people in London certainly are afraid and I wonder if we ever will snap out of it. The situation really isn't healthy nad muslims on public transport should not have the feeling that they shouldn't carry a bag or are always going to be considered a suspect.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  2. #2
    Slapshooter Senior Member el_slapper's Avatar
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    Default Re : Fear in the city

    Not even in England : a colleague of me told me yesterday there was a "bastard" on the train seat next to him. Proof he was a bastard : "he was wearing a beard and reading arab". And next : "those guys should be all killed".

    Man, where fear does lead us?????
    War is not about who is right, only about who is left

    Having a point of view upon everything is good
    Having a view upon every point is better

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    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Anyway, funnily enough I was reading the article I just posted at the time, people in London certainly are afraid and I wonder if we ever will snap out of it. The situation really isn't healthy nad muslims on public transport should not have the feeling that they shouldn't carry a bag or are always going to be considered a suspect.
    Well they always will be a suspect and until Chinese or hell any other race or religion starts blowing themselves up on the london public transport system and leaving nail bombs in children's parks I can't see there being a change to that.

    The only people in a postion to fight muslim extremeists are moderate muslims, who will be the ones to suffer the social backlash. And its a crying shame, but thats the way it is.
    Viva La Rasa!!!

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Errrgh... the Guardian.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  5. #5
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Efrem, to state that 'only moderates can stop the extremist muslims', is to be far too simplistic. Yes 'moderate' muslims are in the best place to solve the situation, but by our actions in the west we can go a very long way to aiding and abetting it. At the moment our actions just inflame the situation and make it worse. If we seriously want to get rid of the extremists and aide our moderate friends, then we need to sort out our own piece of the pie.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Efrem, to state that 'only moderates can stop the extremist muslims', is to be far too simplistic. Yes 'moderate' muslims are in the best place to solve the situation, but by our actions in the west we can go a very long way to aiding and abetting it. At the moment our actions just inflame the situation and make it worse. If we seriously want to get rid of the extremists and aide our moderate friends, then we need to sort out our own piece of the pie.

    True.And at the moment all we seem to be doing is to turn moderates into extremists.
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by el_slapper
    Not even in England : a colleague of me told me yesterday there was a "bastard" on the train seat next to him. Proof he was a bastard : "he was wearing a beard and reading arab". And next : "those guys should be all killed".

    Man, where fear does lead us?????
    Indeed. It goes further than that too as well, it has ramifications for other members of society possibly not even muslims - asylum seekers and immigrants. Already we have the right wing press, parties and supporters linking all this back to the 'evil' immigrants and asylum seekers. One of my friends, a politically naive, anti immigration Conservative, stated to me after hours of the bombs in a txt message 'f**king immigrants, see what they do?' And words to that effect; the hate and fear going hand in hand to try and gain political advantage for their favorite past time - demonising immigrants.

    Even when it came out the bombers were British citizens and indeed born here, my friend was still adamant - just like the papers have been - and in an illustration of how these sorts of people will twist their logic when encompassing reality, he stated: 'how are they British if they are not white'. At that point I walked away and haven't spoken to him since.

    Hate and fear is a toxic mix and I am afraid some nasty people with nasty ideas are going to make great capital out of these bombings, unless sensible people stand up for reality. It is such a shame.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  8. #8
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Even when it came out the bombers were British citizens and indeed born here
    While I have absolutely no idea why I am trying to justify your friend's opinion (which is absurd) it is important to point out that one of the bombers was not born in this country and the rest were 2nd generation British citizens, whose parents were not born in Britain. While they are not immigrants and all had British citizenship, they can hardly be looked at as natives.

    A possible reason for why the bombers were so sucessful is that because they are British citizens, the security services were much less suspicious of their actions. Prior to the 7th of July, it was inconcievable that such a menace actually existed within British communities, especially ones of people born in this country. It creates a difficult situation for the security forces, because now they have to deal with the possibility that every muslim in Britain could potentially be another terrorist, even though the vast majority are clearly not.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Well according to the daily telepgraph 25% of the brittish muslims openly support the bombings, I wonder how many of the remaining 75% just lied. You have something to be afraid about, at least 100.000 muslims that are sharpening their blades.

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    Member Member Efrem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Well according to the daily telepgraph 25% of the brittish muslims openly support the bombings, I wonder how many of the remaining 75% just lied. You have something to be afraid about, at least 100.000 muslims that are sharpening their blades.


    Now that is scary....


    Jag, all your doing is apologising for the terrorists.
    Viva La Rasa!!!

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    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by el_slapper
    Not even in England : a colleague of me told me yesterday there was a "bastard" on the train seat next to him. Proof he was a bastard : "he was wearing a beard and reading arab". And next : "those guys should be all killed".
    Doesn't this prove multi cultural communities dont work.
    Vote For The British nationalist Party.
    Say no to multi-culturalism.

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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Fear in the city

    no it proves that he was a bastard...

    25% of the muslims? what are they doing there if they hate it so much?
    ...

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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Can we have a link for that please. Its a pretty extreme claim to make without backing it up at all.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
    no it proves that he was a bastard...

    25% of the muslims? what are they doing there if they hate it so much?
    ...
    Actually Fragony for some reason ( ) decided to quote the poll incorrectly.

    The muslims that "openly supported" the bombings (i.e. thought they were justified) in this poll accounted for 6% (which is of course still a shockingly high number, especially considering that each of them could have easily been a victim themselves).

    The 24% rsfers to the

    respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried [out the bombings]
    Which is a "bit" different from "openly supporting" the bombings.

    But then those who said that they oppose the bombings probably lied as Fragony suggested

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by _Martyr_
    Can we have a link for that please. Its a pretty extreme claim to make without backing it up at all.
    Here is the link:
    Daily Telegraph

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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Actually Fragony for some reason ( ) decided to quote the poll incorrectly.

    The muslims that "openly supported" the bombings (i.e. thought they were justified) in this poll accounted for 6% (which is of course still a shockingly high number, especially considering that each of them could have easily been a victim themselves).

    The 24% rsfers to the



    Which is a "bit" different from "openly supporting" the bombings.

    But then those who said that they oppose the bombings probably lied as Fragony suggested
    if you ask me 6% is still quite a large number. But 25% was really shocking.
    does sombebidy know how many muslims there are in Britain?

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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Thanks Ser Clegane. Yeah, I suspected 25% was not accurate. But even 6% is a little shocking. The sample was about 500 muslims. Is this large enough to be accurate? Im not dismissing the poll, Im asking.
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    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    True.And at the moment all we seem to be doing is to turn moderates into extremists.
    I don’t think you can turn moderates into extremists. But the moderates can become apathetic while those already radical could be impelled to commit gruesome acts.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    The best way to fight these muslim jihadists is to kill them, preferably in Iraq and Afghanistan, but wherever will do the trick. They want their virgins, well they can have them.

    Oh and it doesnt surprise me one bit that 6% of muslims in Britain openly support the bombings and 24% passively support them. As Ive said before, this extremism has a popular backing that the media refuses to acknowledge most of the time. For every suicide bomber, im sure there are 100 muslims who proclaim their hatred for the west and urge him on, but dont have the balls to do anything themselves.

    Its like in the school yard. There's usually one kid who will always go to extremes to impress the others and succumb to peer pressure.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fear in the city

    If that's the poll I'm thinking of it also reported that about a third of British Muslims want to see the end of Western civilisation. As someone else pointed out, that's scary because that's only the people who openly admit it.

    Someone else's question: I think there's 1.5-2 million Muslims in the U.K.

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Personally, I think any British muslim who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported. If you don't like this country get the hell out because we don't like you.

    Infact anyone who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported regardless of religion.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Doesn't this prove multi cultural communities dont work
    They do, but multiculturism, that self loathing, apologist belief that no country or culture is superior, that we have to respect them, does not.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Khalifah
    Personally, I think any British muslim who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported. If you don't like this country get the hell out because we don't like you.

    Infact anyone who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported regardless of religion.

    The problem is that the government ( and the past ones ) are doing next to nothing to intergrate these people. Noone has tried to make them British and actually many people dont want to. There are ghettos and pockets of people, there are women in Burkas that you see in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, there is no mixing of cultures. You can see sagregation everywhere.

    I think that the government should actively teach and pursue the creation of a national identity, nothing radical, just mix ppl and make them feel welcome. Without giving those people a British national identity you cannot hope to achieve results. And with each new generation the situation becomes more dificult to change ( How can a 3rd generation immigrant consider himself 'not British' ? ). A 'when in rome do as the romans do' approach is urgently needed.

    I have been living in England for 4 years and I can see myself more adjusted and accepted than a lot of people who lived here all their lives. That is a sign of a society that is not functioning as it should.
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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    We could do as the Danes do and refuse to allow them to have foreign sprouses. So no more arranged marriages with some uneducated peasant man/woman from the middle of no where who doesn't speak English. Only a small violation of human rights...

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    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Khalifah
    Personally, I think any British muslim who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported. If you don't like this country get the hell out because we don't like you.

    Infact anyone who agrees with the 7th of July attacks should be deported regardless of religion.
    Well said pal, but the governmant is too soft and cares too much about what other countries think.
    Vote For The British nationalist Party.
    Say no to multi-culturalism.

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    The problem is that the government ( and the past ones ) are doing next to nothing to intergrate these people.
    It's easy to say that the government is doing nothing to integrate these people, but there is also a problem that these peope often do not want to integrate themselves into the community. Minorities tend to huddle themselves into communities so that they do not seem so much like a minority. It's the half a mile or half the world away theory with regards to how far people will move away from home. Many of these 'ghettos' are self inflicted because of an willingess to be in the minority. Also look at mariage rates between different racial groups and religious groups, they are far lower than statistically they should be in a truly integrated community.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by BDC
    We could do as the Danes do and refuse to allow them to have foreign sprouses. So no more arranged marriages with some uneducated peasant man/woman from the middle of no where who doesn't speak English. Only a small violation of human rights...


    How about making damn sure women are well educated, free and independent with no fear from fanatic relatives? This way they wont be able to be used as marriagable objects with main use to bring people from abroad through marriage? How can we expect this thing to change when most girls live under the fear oh 'honour murders' ? Better this way
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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Khalifah
    It's easy to say that the government is doing nothing to integrate these people, but there is also a problem that these peope often do not want to integrate themselves into the community. Minorities tend to huddle themselves into communities so that they do not seem so much like a minority. It's the half a mile or half the world away theory with regards to how far people will move away from home. Many of these 'ghettos' are self inflicted because of an willingess to be in the minority. Also look at mariage rates between different racial groups and religious groups, they are far lower than statistically they should be in a truly integrated community.
    Bad! Bad Al Khalifah! You racist! Bad!

    But you know what, you are absoblutely right. The problem is, you are ostracized for mentioning it. We have a Black Student Union association on campus. The most stuck up group of people I have ever met. Of course, since they are black it makes me racist and them oppressed for me to say that. They don't care to do anything with the rest of the organizations on campus. God knows they have to be invited. But what I really liked was this:

    http://www.kstatecollegian.com/article.php?a=862

    BSU bitches about lack of coverage for a conference. KSU plays dead. We now have a minority faculty advisor. Who does nothing (according to my two friends who write for the paper). But by God, the Collegian swarms anything without white people!

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  29. #29
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    So 6% wished they did it themselves, and 24% thought the Londoners had it coming. Lovely. Who can say how the other 70% really think? Still, 30% of polled Muslims think that the attacks were justifiable to some degree.

    JAG et all agree, of course. What are you going to do, JAG? Apologize at them until the keel over? Please.


    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    How about making damn sure women are well educated, free and independent with no fear from fanatic relatives? This way they wont be able to be used as marriagable objects with main use to bring people from abroad through marriage? How can we expect this thing to change when most girls live under the fear oh 'honour murders' ? Better this way
    What, tell them "you will go and get a liberal arts degree or we put you against a wall and shoot you?" It will be just as "racist" or "unacceptable" to force these people to become educated in a Western fashion.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fear in the city

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
    So 6% wished they did it themselves, and 24% thought the Londoners had it coming.
    Were exactly did you read that?

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