Newbie questions on RTW units

[Krautman]

Hi everyone,

First of all: I enjoyed the TW series since Shogun was released, and "Rome" is just awesome. Sadly, my computer is too weak; i am condemned to watching my brother playing it on his.

There are some questions i have about the units as they are represented in the game.
I had to learn my share of latin and some greek, and have read the usual authors. Additionally, i am currently reading Johann G. Droysen's biography of Alexander the Great. Some details on military stuff came back to my mind when first playing Rome.

In the game, the "Hastati" are armed with throwing spears.
"Hasta" means spear or lance, possibly including throwing spears, but mainly referring to a thrusting weapon or ceremonial spear. Military spears meant for throwing are usually adressed as "telum" or "pilum" in latin (Caesar, Livius). Could it be that early republican heavy infantry was equipped with spears for thrusting instead of throwing spears?
Maybe there was a change in equipment and the unit name stayed the same?

The Greek "Peltasts" are also equipped with throwing spears.
Droysen has a small chapter on the Macedonian army, and also mentions Peltasts (to whom, as he says, Macedonian Hypaspists were similar): The Athenian Strategos Iphikrates created an infantry type that was supposed to be quicker than the standard Hoplite Phalanx, yet strong enough to defeat light infantry. They carried a shield, lighter than the Hoplites', a body armour made of some special kind of cloth which i don't know the english word for, and a sword somewhat longer than the greek Hoplite sword. These Peltasts were mobile enough to be of good use in difficult terrain, or to outmaneuver heavy infantry. Droysen doesn't mention spears or thowing spears (which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any). According to his words, i would've guessed Peltasts were some kind of medium melee infantry using sword and shield, and not javelins? Spear-throwers are called "Akontistoi". So why do RTW Peltasts carry throwing spears? Maybe the exact equipment varied throughout the years?

The last issue is the roman starting position in 270 BC- in Sicily? In 270 BC?
Maybe a game balance thing?

Sorry about the obsession with minor game details, latin and old books; but these are things i just wanted to ask.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I know not the answers to your questions, but a good place to check would be in the Monastary forum - all the history buffs hang out there.

[Marcellus]

In the game, the "Hastati" are armed with throwing spears. "Hasta" means spear or lance, possibly including throwing spears, but mainly referring to a thrusting weapon or ceremonial spear. Military spears meant for throwing are usually adressed as "telum" or "pilum" in latin (Caesar, Livius). Could it be that early republican heavy infantry was equipped with spears for thrusting instead of throwing spears?
Maybe there was a change in equipment and the unit name stayed the same?

I seem to remember reading something about the hastati originally being armed with longer, lighter javelins/spears (i.e. hasta, where they get their name from). They then changed their javelin to the pilum but they did not change their name.

The last issue is the roman starting position in 270 BC- in Sicily? In 270 BC?
Maybe a game balance thing?

I think it must be - otherwise there would not be enough roman provinces to divide between the different Roman factions. The Romans would not land in Sicily for several years in 270BC, and would not fully control Sicily until the end of the First Punic War in 241BC.

I'm afraid I don't know enough to help you with the Greek question.

I hope that helps a bit.

[SpencerH]

If you're looking for historical accuracy in RTW, you're likely to be disappointed. Hopefully RTR will be out soon and wont be too buggy (but given the state of what they have to start with i.e. v1.2, who'd know if RTR is buggy).

[econ21]

There's nothing wrong with the representation of hastati and peltasts in the game, AFAIK. It's true that a counter to peltasts was developed - perhaps these are the "heavy peltasts" in RTW. I believe in RTR 6.0, they will be called Hypaspists. You are right about Rome's starting position not including Sicily.

If you are interested in historical accuracy, I'd recommend the Rome Total Realism mod. It fixes starting territories and units to be more historical. Also have a look at the Europa Barborum forum here and read some of the weekly faction reviews - they have very informative descriptions of units.

[Red Harvest]

The hastati carry pila, a fairly specific throwing spear with an iron head that bends or pivots after it strikes. This is considerbly different (and heavier) than the standard javelin. The thin shaft and head give it some armour penetrating capability beyond a simple javelin. The range is of course shorter for the pilum relative to the javelin. By the way, some spanish (celt/iberian) soldiers used the "soliferrum" which was a solid iron shaft like a very heavy javelin. The spanish had access to good iron, and they had excellent smiths, which made for high quality iron weapons. The soliferrum apparently was quite dangerous. This is not illustrated in the game visually, but the stats for the spanish "pila" units do reflect higher values if memory serves.

The early Republican armies were actually phalanx style, and changed to manipular style with swords and javelins sometime between 300 and 400 BCE as the result of defeats at the hands of tribes of Gauls and Samnites. "Hasta" might have been used for throwing spears, or regular thrusting spears that the forward ranks might have had at one time. (Going from memory alone here, but there is no real smoking gun, and lots of conjecture. The subject comes up at times.)

Peltasts were most commonly skirmishers with throwing spears (javelins.) They were successful in broken, mountainous, or woody terrain because they could harrass the phalanx with near impunity. Iphikrates apparently made his peltasts heavier with greaves and some quilted linen armour, so that they could actually engage in some melee when needed. Also his hoplites became lighter (with a longer thrusting spear than the traditional hoplite.) There is a fair bit of conjecture about what happened exactly, and specifically who made the next leap to a two handed pike. However, warfare in Greece was changing about this time and the end result was the Macedonian phalanx. Hypaspists are never well described, they were elite and seem to have carried out myriad roles. As such they are tough to classify.

One thing that is sorely missing from the game is the combination of one or two throwing spears with a thrusting spear. This was a rather common armanent for rank and file troops in various "barbarian" forces.

The starting position in Sicily is probably a compromise to get the Scipii going. The Romans didn't actually take Messana until a few years later, which is what prompted the war with Carthage.

I'm going totally from memory on this...so don't be surprised if something is a bit off.

[Krautman]

Well, thank you all for the helpful replies!

[Afro Thunder]

I seem to remember reading something about the hastati originally being armed with longer, lighter javelins/spears (i.e. hasta, where they get their name from). They then changed their javelin to the pilum but they did not change their name.

And all this time I thought it was meant to confuse and baffle the enemy... You know, Hastati aren't armed with hastas, but Triarii are.