Secrets of the Byzantine Empire ?!?

[NodachiSam]

I am playing Byzantine right now and I am enjoying their high level generals!

I think it makes sense that they could produce high level generals since they are the heirs of the Roman tradition. I imagine that Constantinople would have vast libraries of military history and excellent military acadamies. They have a head start on the frankish kingdoms who are maybe half a millenium old. Charlamange ( I always spell that guys name wrong) did a good job though.

[EatYerGreens]

I am playing Byzantine right now and I am enjoying their high level generals!

I think it makes sense that they could produce high level generals since they are the heirs of the Roman tradition. I imagine that Constantinople would have vast libraries of military history and excellent military acadamies. They have a head start on the frankish kingdoms who are maybe half a millenium old.

I agree that it's almost an unfair advantage to the player when having these great generals. Two HDD failures mean I've had two previous unfinished Byz campaigns (similarly two unfinished English campaigns) and the contrast when using a 0* or 1* general in a fight is quite stark. The ByzInf unit description says 'poor morale' and to see a unit scarper when there's still 80 or 90 of them left is really quite depressing, since they tend to make the accompanying spears and UM type units lose heart and flee too.

I have one general now who started at 8* and has since acquired Skilled Defender (+1) and Skilled Attacker (+2 for 10 stars!!!). His V&V's say he's a pervert but I'm keeping him anyway. The valour and/or morale boost they give really makes all the difference in battle.

In a recent combat over the last Eggy province, 2 of his BI units were boosted to valour 5 and another was valour 7 due to a V&V of it's leader. I think that was something like 'Secret Pride'. An archer unit, already +1V from Trebizond, had a +3 valour V&V ('Pride' again?), so it went into battle at valour 8!! Poor old 2-star Egyptian Caliph and his two stacks didn't have a hope against this lot. Oh yeah, church AND monastery back at Connie gave the BI's something like +2 morale bonus, so they won't break until down to maybe 30 men. In the meantime, they'll stand their ground and chop things to bits.

I don't know if the Byzantine libraries contributed anything which the Frankish armies wouldn't also have had access to. I think, for game purposes, it may be meant to represent the fact that, historically, they were continually gaining combat experience in dealing with raids and bordering empires, so up-to-date expertise could be passed father to son, even amongst the illiterate. The Europeans, by contrast, only went to war sporadically, so there was room for knowledge to be lost between generations and for 'greengenerals' to be the norm.

ISTR there is a cheat of this name, which makes all generals spawn at 0* and all ratings have to be earnt in actual battles from then on. This is the only cheat I can think of which actually increases the level of challenge to the human player. Brittle morale means that you can have superior numbers but still see your army routed because your expecting them to attack uphill, reducing their combat power and with a morale penalty on top. No doubt some AI factions will suffer badly in this scenario because their unit roster isn't too great, relative to others on thier borders.

Speaking of which, I am now beginning appreciate that Byz have some roster restrictions of their own. There is no motivation to buy militia buildings higher than Town Watch since Militia Sergeants are unavailable to them (not that they really need them, I suppose). I found the tech tree misleading, in that it printed the unit name in black text, suggesting that all factions can build it. The markings for Catholic-only weren't used, for some reason.
I also note that advancing the spear and archery buildings doesn't add a valour bonus at all and wonder why I bothered. However, at the Master end of the spearmaker tree, I see a +1 valour can eventually be gained. A lot of money required to get that far though, so is it worth the bother?

Charlamange ( I always spell that guys name wrong) did a good job though.

As a memory-jogger, I always think, phonetically, of sham-pag-knee to spell 'champagne' correctly and it's the same for the ending on his name.

Mange is an unsightly disease which our cute, furry, pets can cach...

[Ludens]

In a recent combat over the last Eggy province, 2 of his BI units were boosted to valour 5 and another was valour 7 due to a V&V of it's leader. I think that was something like 'Secret Pride'. An archer unit, already +1V from Trebizond, had a +3 valour V&V ('Pride' again?), so it went into battle at valour 8!!

Valour-related V&V's don't reflect on the rest of the army, merely on the generals unit. Only morale V&V's are army wide. Just because the general is too fat to get on his horse doesn't mean the rest of the army would be simularly handicapped .

BTW I think Byzantine tactical skill had more to do with the nature of their armies than with any superior knowledge on their side. As far as I know, the Byzantines never had a military academy.

[EatYerGreens]

Valour-related V&V's don't reflect on the rest of the army, merely on the generals unit. Only morale V&V's are army wide. Just because the general is too fat to get on his horse doesn't mean the rest of the army would be simularly handicapped .

I don't think I phrased that bit particularly well, in my previous post. The general's V&V's were 'Perversion; Silver Tongued; Skilled Defender (+1 Cmd defending); Expert Attacker (+2 Cmd Attacking)'. (Lord Phocas, Count of Tripoli), with a base star rating of 8.

Two of the unit leaders within his stack had Secret Pride/Pride which boosted their unit's valour rating by +2 and +3, respectively.

When the general is 10-star for the attack, with his bonus, every unit gets a valour boost, in this case it looks like it was +5 for all units.

2 BI's, trained at V0, showed as V5
1 BI, trained at V0, with Secret Pride (+2V), showed as V7
2 TA's, trained in Trebizond at 1V, showed as V6
1 TA, trained at V0, with Pride (+3V), showed as V8

EDIT: Correction, it was a +4 valour boost. Having checked the screenshots, I see that some merc Faris were V4, as were other green units. The V5 BIs must have had base valour of 1, following mergers of veteran units. Because they were full 100s, I initially assumed they were still fresh.

[Ludens]

I don't think I phrased that bit particularly well

Neither did I . I mentioned the glutton vice as an example of a vice that should not affect the entire army. I thought you had said your entire army gained +3V because of the pride vice.

I forgot to put in in last mail, but there is something wrong with the pride vices: the effects of pride and secret pride are reversed. Not just on valour, but also on acumen. Thus if a general goes from secret pride to pride he actually loses valour but gains acumen. However, since the pride vice tends to crop up amongst my governors I don't think it that bad.

You do know that valour derived from the general's stars does not give a morale bonus? Units close to the general do get +1 morale for every star he has, but those far off won't benefit from this. If your general leaves the BI too far behind they will go back to their ordinary, flimsy morale level, which nothing something you want if the battle is not going your way. But then, V5 BI will probably carry most opponents before them, so as long as they are supported they should do fine.

[EatYerGreens]

I forgot to put in in last mail, but there is something wrong with the pride vices: the effects of pride and secret pride are reversed. Not just on valour, but also on acumen. Thus if a general goes from secret pride to pride he actually loses valour but gains acumen. However, since the pride vice tends to crop up amongst my governors I don't think it that bad.

I double-checked and that archer unit did have Secret Pride: +3 valour. Every unit was getting +4 valour from the general, so it seems to be +1 for every 2 stars which the general has. For instance, I see that 1* generals don't seem to give a valour boost at all.

You do know that valour derived from the general's stars does not give a morale bonus?

I didn't but I do now!

Morale I'm not overly worried about when the valour levels are so high. I have this feeling that the phenomenon whereby the AI army retreats off the battle map entirely, as soon as your troops approach close to them is that there is some kind of visibility range for the valou flags on the units. They will stand firm as you approach but when you are close enough for them to see what they are up against, particularly when they are not of high valour themselves, the AI general will decide to withdraw rather than indulge in a fight which he will lose badly.

Units close to the general do get +1 morale for every star he has, but those far off won't benefit from this. If your general leaves the BI too far behind they will go back to their ordinary, flimsy morale level, which nothing something you want if the battle is not going your way. But then, V5 BI will probably carry most opponents before them, so as long as they are supported they should do fine.

After the waiting and the HA teasing, the general's Katanks were down to 3 energy bars. I think he spent most of the battle watching, rather than taking part! The AI should have been able to put 2-3 Nubian Spears onto each of the BI's I'd brought with me but they held their own very well.

Skilled attacker + Skilled Defender really, really kills the AI's ability against the player. The AI almost never gets them because they autocalc and suck.

Possibly unfair in my case, since the general got his initial stars from starting life as a prince; he got skilled defender from defeating a force which only outnumbered his thanks to involvement of large numbers of peasants; skilled and Expert Attacker from inflicting defeats on larger forces which were equally stuffed with pez. Some kind of {numbers x quality} formula ought to be used before these attributes get awarded although, for the time being, I'd be happy to take the credit for player skill...

[antisocialmunky]

Skilled attacker + Skilled Defender really, really kills the AI's ability against the player. The AI almost never gets them because they autocalc and suck.

[Mujalumbo]

EatYerGreens is right. Naples is the province I was thinking of.

It's a bit of a pain in the @$$ to hold onto at first, but if you can stave off the Sicillians long enough to tech up to a Swordsmith, you can spam out Byzntine Infantrymen and boot them off Scily.

I wonder if an Inn is the best way to replicate the late Byzantine's reliance on mercenaries. I'm thinking maybe it'd be better to create, say, units equivilent to the Cathlic's Chivalric or Feudal lines, but jack the recruitment and upkeep costs through the roof.

[antisocialmunky]

You really could if you wanted to, there's some really good Mercs in the East. I saw an all-merc walkthrough of Aragon, I think it's in the guides forum, you should look through it if you're interesting in a merc-only game.