What's with NASA shuttles?

[Adrian II]

So pieces of debris fell off the NASA shuttle after launch. Oohhh!

But is it really a big deal? Is it a bigger deal than it used to be? Or are we turning this into a bigger deal than we should?

This is the latest we have (*puts on Muppet newsreader voice*):

Nasa to continue shuttle checks

High quality images of Discovery are being analysed

Nasa experts are continuing to analyse pictures of the Discovery shuttle in a bid to confirm the vehicle's heatshield tiles have sustained no serious damage. The agency has suspended all future orbiter flights until it can find an effective way to stop foam sliding off the vehicle's external tank on launch.

Can anyone tell me if there have been less, more or about an equal number of technical 'issues' and 'incidents' with shuttle flights over the past decade? Is this a real issue or is NASA forced to be oversensitive in an era that, on the whole, seems to be oversensitive to risks, threats and security problems of all kinds?

I mean, did nothing fall off the Gemini or the Apollo when Armstrong, Scott and Aldrin went up there is the nineteen-sixties?

Anyone informed about the history of space travel and willling to enlighten us?

[PanzerJaeger]

Theyre old as shit..

[Marcellus]

So pieces of debris fell off the NASA shuttle after launch. Oohhh!

But is it really a big deal? Is it a bigger deal than it used to be? Or are we turning this into a bigger deal than we should?

IIRC it was pieces of debris like the ones that fell off this shuttle that led to the destruction of space shuttle Columbia. We seem to be lucky in this case because the debris missed the shuttle orbiter.

[Al Khalifah]

NASA is the biggest waste of American tax payers money. Anyone read Deception Point? I agreed completely with Senator Sexton. Fortunately I don't pay taxes in America so it doesn't concern me too much.

Why not just privatise space exploration? Commercial enterprises could do the same job far more efficiently and cost-effectively. I fully believe we could be on Mars in 10 years time if only we would let the corporations try instead of this Government subsidised cash-sponge.

[Red Harvest]

In a nutshell: NASA is playing catch up. They've had problems with the shuttles all along. Tile loss has been a concern from the very beginning. They got complacent about chunks from the tank coming off...until one hit that carbon leading edge of the wing. So now after losing a shuttle they have to fix it. That's not easy with such a big system (the tank surface), with the extremes it faces, and with the fact that adding much weight as part of a fix is not a likely option either. Their first shot at it didn't quite do the job. Now they are looking at a more fundamental change to the tank I suppose.

More verbose:
NASA really screwed up...TWICE. Keeping O'Keefe on after the 2nd disaster didn't help. This was a cultural/management issue and is the sort of thing that requires some major housecleaning at the top to clear away the impediments. O'Keefe is now gone, but the change was needed sooner. You don't let the old management preside over a rework of fundamentally broken management. It's just a bad idea and it has to have set them back.

The two accidents came from management ignoring previously observed KNOWN problems. Both were inexcusable. There was a Morton Thiokol engineer that told his coworkers in his carpool (after being overruled by NASA/Morton Thiokol management before the 1st disaster) to watch the launch, because the shuttle was going to explode. The engineers were actually surprised that it didn't explode on the pad. The reason (from looking at video) was because the propellant puffed out the leaky O-ring at ignition, then sealed itself...until it hit the high wind shear later in the flight (which was at the extremes of the launch criteria and near the design limits.) The high shear appears to have flexed the booster and opened the joint.

O'Keefe told several lies right after the 2nd disaster--just about everything he said was false, and showed an agency in denial trying to cover its errors. There really was no excuse for not having some of the camera coverage that has now been implmented. Sure, it would have been tough in the early days, but the gear has gotten so much easier to deploy in the last decade or so. The tank camera is really phenomenal.

NASA is trying not to make the same mistake a third time. Can this be resolved? You bet. Will space launches remain risky? You bet. Hopefully, NASA will pay better attention to warning signs. Neither one of the accidents was unforseen, both had given plenty of warning, but had not been addressed. It is one thing to have a disaster to a random failure or freak accident. It is another to have two accidents as the result of previously identified problem areas from multiple prior launches.

[Marcellus]

Why not just privatise space exploration? Commercial enterprises could do the same job far more efficiently and cost-effectively. I fully believe we could be on Mars in 10 years time if only we would let the corporations try instead of this Government subsidised cash-sponge.

What would private companies gain from spending huge amounts of money on space exploration? There's very little money to be gained back from space exploration. Space exploration's benefits are much more scientific.

[Al Khalifah]

What would private companies gain from spending huge amounts of money on space exploration? There's very little money to be gained back from space exploration. Space exploration's benefits are much more scientific.

If I built a hotel complex on the moon, how much could I charge per person per night? Even just an orbitting hotel would do the trick. People would pay a fortune to go into space - such as that Russian (I think) businessman.
Buying real estate on the moon would pay dividends at resale time. Just think of the mark-up.

Space is the future and the corporations would definately want in.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Theyre old as shit..

Thats true. Their 1970s technology. Its time for something new.

Why not just privatise space exploration? Commercial enterprises could do the same job far more efficiently and cost-effectively. I fully believe we could be on Mars in 10 years time if only we would let the corporations try instead of this Government subsidised cash-sponge.

What would private companies gain from spending huge amounts of money on space exploration? There's very little money to be gained back from space exploration. Space exploration's benefits are much more scientific.

ts already being done. In fact you may remember that a private craft has already reached space.

NASA is the biggest waste of American tax payers money. Anyone read Deception Point?

You really need to study this subject more. Theres a good chance we wouldnt be posting here if not for NASA. The things we have gotten from space exploration already are staggering.

They probably told Columbus the samething before he headed for the New World.

[Red Harvest]

NASA is the biggest waste of American tax payers money. Anyone read Deception Point? I agreed completely with Senator Sexton. Fortunately I don't pay taxes in America so it doesn't concern me too much.

Why not just privatise space exploration? Commercial enterprises could do the same job far more efficiently and cost-effectively. I fully believe we could be on Mars in 10 years time if only we would let the corporations try instead of this Government subsidised cash-sponge.

Would you want to fly on a space ship financed by Enron? I've seen what sort of engineering mistakes private enterprise makes. The belief that commercial is necessarily better is a real stretch. I've seen commercial equipment explode from poor management decisions and design issues. Most recent one nearby was a BP plant...

And how exactly are these commercial enterprises going to fund their activities? New market selling to the Martians?

Space exploration is basic research and of such a fundamental level that it is never going to be funded by corporations. Would GE build and operate the Hubble just out of the goodness of its corporate heart? And freely share all that it learned?

It is already private contractors building the gear you know...like the Hubble mirror that was ground to the wrong figure by Perkin-Elmer.

[Viking]

Why not just privatise space exploration? Commercial enterprises could do the same job far more efficiently and cost-effectively. I fully believe we could be on Mars in 10 years time if only we would let the corporations try instead of this Government subsidised cash-sponge.

Gah! No to privatisation of space exploration! If the exploration were privatized almost nothing would happen. Space tourism on the other hand is where commercial companys will do well.

The whole spaceshuttle design were a mess and most scientists wants to get rid of them. The ISS and the shuttles is no good for NASA`s new Vision, so they better complete their part of the deal with ISS as soon as possible if they want to go ahead with the Vision.


As for those pieces one should take into consideration that (as far as I know)it is the first time one has sendt up a camera with a shuttle, so it might be normal that such pieces fall off.

[CBR]

Space is the future and the corporations would definately want in.

Well nothing stops them from doing it so why haven't we seen any hotels in space yet?

Its the cutting edge of engineering and costs a lot of money and there wont be any firms spending money on probes or scientific missions.


CBR

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What are you guys talking about? As I said we already had a whole thread on the privitaztion of Space and its in full swing as we speak.

[Viking]

If I built a hotel complex on the moon, how much could I charge per person per night? Even just an orbitting hotel would do the trick. People would pay a fortune to go into space - such as that Russian (I think) businessman.
Buying real estate on the moon would pay dividends at resale time. Just think of the mark-up.

That is not exploration, but tourism.

Space is the future

I can easily agree with you in that

[Steppe Merc]

Why would you trust corporations to explore space? That would be horrible, IMO. People in the future will never be able to learn anything about our galaxy, because the corporations won't care about finding out about other species, and we'll never be able to make any worthwhile scientfic findings if the corporations are allowed into space.

However, I don't see what the point is of firing off new shuttles. I think it would be more important to have unmanned probes that can actually reach places where we haven't been before, instead of doing the same thing over and over.

[Marcellus]

The privatisation being talked about here is space tourism, not space exploration.

Edit: looks like Viking managed to get this point in a few posts ago.

[CBR]

However, I don't see what the point is of firing off new shuttles. I think it would be more important to have unmanned probes that can actually reach places where we haven't been before, instead of doing the same thing over and over.

There is always gonna be a limit on having robots doing all the work.


CBR

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why would you trust corporations to explore space?

Oh I see you trust the government more. How foolish of us to trust a corporation. We all know its the government that supports us all.

People in the future will never be able to learn anything about our galaxy, because the corporations won't care about finding out about other species, and we'll never be able to make any worthwhile scientfic findings if the corporations are allowed into space.

Wow a conspiracy theory before they even get there. On what do you base this outragous claim?

However, I don't see what the point is of firing off new shuttles. I think it would be more important to have unmanned probes that can actually reach places where we haven't been before, instead of doing the same thing over and over.

Your right the shuttles are worthless pieces of junk. They dont do the samethings over and over other than fixing things that we have in space.

[Steppe Merc]

Oh I see you trust the government more. How foolish of us to trust a corporation. We all know its the government that supports us all.

Well no, we the government should support us, and keep the big buisness in line. But the goverment helps the big buisness, rather than vice versa.

Wow a conspiracy theory before they even get there. On what do you base this outragous claim?

Aliens told me.

Your right the shuttles are worthless pieces of junk. They dont do the samethings over and over other than fixing things that we have in space.

I exagerated. However, it isn't like we can find out more about Jupiter, or other planets in our solar system with more manned flights, at least at the present.

[Red Harvest]

I've always been a supporter of manned exploration, but we don't seem to be doing much with it anymore. I'm still not sure what ISS is doing. And we seem be ruling out manned missions to service Hubble, so I'm starting to ask, what's the point if we aren't even going to leave the front porch? What really bothers me is that we aren't doing some of the bigger missions, such as Pluto, because we are spending the money on ISS.

I don't see what is keeping private industry out of doing space exploration...other than identifiable economic benefits...which is understandable. Now if Bill Gates decides he wants to go to Mars, he probably has the money to bankroll that one.

It's going to take some mighty deep pockets to do it.

[Viking]

I exagerated. However, it isn't like we can find out more about Jupiter, or other planets in our solar system with more manned flights, at least at the present.

No, that`s right, but that`s not what the point of shuttle-launches is. The astronauts are in reality scientists that have undergone training. What they`re doing is doing research on things that are difficult/impossible to do on Earth. I can`t go into depth since I don`t remember any examples.

I do not defend the shuttles or the International Space station in any way. I think it`s mostly a waste of money.

[Marcellus]

Wow a conspiracy theory before they even get there. On what do you base this outragous claim?

Looking for alien life and researching the galaxy isn't profitable. Therefore private companies will not spend money on this type of research, and the progress of our knowledge of space will suffer as a result.

[drone]

Are we forgetting our history here? The exploration, exploitation, and colonization of the New World and Asia by the Europeans was funded by both governments and private companies. If NASA finds super-rich mineral deposits on the Moon, Mars, Phobos, or Deimos, you can bet private industry will jump all over it. Of course, in this case research becomes secondary.

[Marcellus]

If NASA finds super-rich mineral deposits on the Moon, Mars, Phobos, or Deimos, you can bet private industry will jump all over it. Of course, in this case research becomes secondary.

But it would cost millions for each mission to the moon. The costs getting there would outweigh any proftis that could be made. So private companies would not get involved.

And, as you have pointed out, research would become secondary.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But it would cost millions for each mission to the moon. The costs getting there would outweigh any proftis that could be made. So private companies would not get involved.

Thats now not in the future. Someday I believe it will be profitable. In fact very profitable. Plus there will be the tourist trade.

[Red Harvest]

Are we forgetting our history here? The exploration, exploitation, and colonization of the New World and Asia by the Europeans was funded by both governments and private companies. If NASA finds super-rich mineral deposits on the Moon, Mars, Phobos, or Deimos, you can bet private industry will jump all over it. Of course, in this case research becomes secondary.

The New World explorers were looking for a shorter/more direct trade route and they were funded by the state as I recall... In other words, they had a very good economic case for attempting the undertaking, and they received govt financing.

As for Asia exploration by Europeans. Again, trade with Asia was already happening...weren't they just trying to gain more direct access/relations? I'm not as familiar with the history, and I don't know who financed it. Are you talking about land or sea exploration?

Also, it would have to be something incredibly exotic for the mining to make sense, because it would be a very expensive operation.

It is more likely that the real value is in the technology developments that spring from the exploration effort itself. This is much wider than what a company could really benefit from unless they hit a lotto jackpot so to speak.

[drone]

But it would cost millions for each mission to the moon. The costs getting there would outweigh any proftis that could be made. So private companies would not get involved.

The decision to mine ore or drill for oil is always based on market values and trends vs. cost of extraction. There is still oil in Texas, it is just not cost effective at the moment to drill for. One day, it will be.

If a rare (on Earth) metal is found in outerspace in large quantities, some company will make an attempt. If they found out that the Moon had a huge platinum or titanium deposit, mining companies all over would start planning expeditions.

Red Harvest, I was referring to corporations like the East India Company. Much of their funding came from the governments, but the US subsidizing a company to gain control of a precious metal market does not sound too farfetched.

[Marcellus]

If a rare (on Earth) metal is found in outerspace in large quantities, some company will make an attempt. If they found out that the Moon had a huge platinum or titanium deposit, mining companies all over would start planning expeditions.

The cost of mining the platinum or titanium would be absolutely massive. The cost of research required for the project to work, the cost of the very advanced technology required, the cost of the huge amount of fuel required to get the spaceship away from the Earth, the cost of setting up and maintaining a lunar colony to mine the resource, the cost of the huge amount of fuel required to get the resource off the moon, the cost of the fuel required to get this extra fuel off the Earth in the first place, all these costs would be massive. Coupled with the high risk of failure, these costs would never outweigh the gains of getting a few tonnes of platinum from the moon.

[Al Khalifah]

Wow, real objection real quick there. Allow me to address your points one at a time.

You really need to study this subject more. Theres a good chance we wouldnt be posting here if not for NASA. The things we have gotten from space exploration already are staggering.

I agree that many technologies we now posses are due to the work done by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, but surely if private companies had been involved in space, they too would have had to develop many of the same technologies anyway. Indeed, work outsourced to private companies by NASA has brought about many new ideas and technologies for these companies that have had application in commercial enterprise.
Private companies are not stupid. If there is something that they can develop and sell they will do so and necessity is the fuel of invention. For every technology that was necessary to point a man in space or a man on the moon, then those who required it would have invented it.

What would private companies gain from spending huge amounts of money on space exploration? There's very little money to be gained back from space exploration. Space exploration's benefits are much more scientific.

Science always benefits business. When the internal combustion engine was invented, who benefitted most? When fibre optics were invented who benefitted most? Why do you think large companies invest so much money in research and development?
Also, large corporations do not do everything to make money. They will also did things to boost their public image. Bill Gates funds the worlds largest charity and pretty much all large corporations will do similar things. Image is essential to large businesses.
And finally, space exploration could potentially discover an essential resource on a different planet or a potential business opportunity. If there were, for example, vast diamond or precious metal resources on another planet, business would want to know.

Would you want to fly on a space ship financed by Enron? I've seen what sort of engineering mistakes private enterprise makes. The belief that commercial is necessarily better is a real stretch. I've seen commercial equipment explode from poor management decisions and design issues. Most recent one nearby was a BP plant...

I drive to work several days a week in a car manufactured by Peugeot. The car is composed of thousands of components, the failure of even one of these could lead to my death and those of people around me. I am not terrified though, because I know that they will have invested millions of pounds in insuring that they are as safe as possible. In the event that the parts fail and I am injured, or worse, the corporation is accountable and would have to pay out hefty insurance payments.
I flew to Crete in a plane made by Boeing, I've been on a P&O ferry, I've flown in a helicopter made by the Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. Your life is in the corporations' hands. They cannot afford to mess up because of the consequences, not just of insurance pay outs but also because of the absolute damage it would do to their public image in the event of their failure.

And how exactly are these commercial enterprises going to fund their activities? New market selling to the Martians?

Space tourism, real estate etc. The markup would be huge and once the processes were standardised, it would eventually become reasonably affordable.

because the corporations won't care about finding out about other species

I think every corporation would pay a billion pounds a billion times over to be the first corporation to encounter intelligent life from another world. Think of the publicity, the potential technology exchange, the market would be enormous. Imagine it.... BREAKING NEWS: aliens drink diet coke! Naturally it would not be their main priority because it is unlikely to make money soon, but then again its hardly the main priority of the current regime.
And besides, assuming there was intelligent life within our reach, why would they want to talk to us? We can't even tolerate people of different colours or religions, so I don't think we'd get far with people of different species.

The reason private companies do not become more involved in space is that NASA is able to undercut them, because it is so heavily subsidised. Private companies could put satellites into space for much less than NASA can, but NASA is subsidised so the prices stay below what the companies can charge. The loss leader is always going to undercut those trying to make a profit.

[Marcellus]

Science always benefits business. When the internal combustion engine was invented, who benefitted most? When fibre optics were invented who benefitted most? Why do you think large companies invest so much money in research and development?

Science often benefits business, when it can be used to make products that people will buy a lot, like cars. The general public won't buy spacecraft. Nor will they buy space sattelites. The expensive technology of space exploration has quite a narrow usage, which is, well, space research. Private companies will not want to put a huge amount of money into researching something that most people will not have any use for.

Also, large corporations do not do everything to make money. They will also did things to boost their public image. Bill Gates funds the worlds largest charity and pretty much all large corporations will do similar things. Image is essential to large businesses.

They will do things to promote their image if the costs will be made up for by increased sales due to the improved image. The costs of space research and exploration are far greater than the improved business due to their better image. Therefore private companies will not invest in space exploration and research.

And finally, space exploration could potentially discover an essential resource on a different planet or a potential business opportunity. If there were, for example, vast diamond or precious metal resources on another planet, business would want to know.

Please see my previous post.

[Divinus Arma]

Theyre old as shit..

I think the proper term is: "as old as white dog shit".