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Thread: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

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    Default Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists
    Thursday, July 28, 2005

    Following deadly bombings in Britain and other nations, American Muslim scholars issued an edict Thursday condemning religious extremism and calling terrorists "criminals, not 'martyrs."

    The 18-member Fiqh Council of North America (search) said Muslims were barred from helping "any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence."

    "There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism," the scholars wrote in the edict, called a fatwa (search). "Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram ó or forbidden."

    Many Muslim leaders overseas have made similar statements in recent weeks, but some have left an opening for violence to be used in certain situations. One group of British Muslim leaders who denounced the July 7 attacks in London said suicide bombings could still be justified against an occupying power ó drawing criticism that it invited violence in Iraq, where civilians along with coalition troops have been killed.

    However, the U.S. scholars said in a Washington news conference that their prohibition applied to attacks on civilians everywhere. Their fatwa states that Muslims are obligated to help law enforcement authorities "protect the lives of all civilians."

    "Suicide bombing is forbidden in Islam," said Muzammil H. Siddiqi (search), head of the Fiqh Council. "This is not the solution, it is not the right way of doing things. Occupation is wrong, of course, but at the same time this is not the way."

    Islam has no central authority and the council serves an advisory role for American Muslims, who could number as high as 6 million. But some question whether the panel's statements would sway extremists.

    While the Muslim world does not look to America as a center of Islamic thinking, U.S. Muslims wanted to send a message about their faith. Muslim leaders lament that their repeated condemnations of terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks have been ignored by critics.

    The Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group based in Los Angeles, started the "National Anti-Terrorism Campaign," urging Muslims to monitor their own communities, speak out more boldly against violence and work with law enforcement officials.

    The Council on American-Islamic Relations is running a TV ad and a petition-drive called "Not in the Name of Islam," which repudiates terrorism. In New York and other cities, mosque leaders have joined advisory committees created by the FBI to build relations between law enforcement and their local communities.

    "We have been speaking repeatedly, clearly, unequivocally for years, even before 9/11," said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights organization based in Washington. "But apparently some people have just started to hear us."

    Alan Wisdom, head of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a conservative Christian group in Washington, praised the scholars for issuing the edict. He said he hoped Muslim leaders would follow up the statement with action, by helping combat "specific movements that employ terrorism as a basic tactic" in Israel and elsewhere, and by lobbying for religious freedom in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia.

    "We look forward to working with Muslims as they find in their tradition, we hope, the tools to build and work within democratic, pluralist states," said Wisdom, a leader in encouraging evangelicals to build relations with Muslims.

    Rabbi David Saperstein, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism in Washington, was especially encouraged that the Fiqh Council said its edict applied in all countries. The term "fiqh" refers to Islamic legal issues.

    "It's always helpful when prominent, mainstream religious leaders are willing to take a unified public stand against extremism," said Saperstein, a former member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. "Ultimately, it is Muslims who are going to need to win the battle about the direction and the future of Islam."
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163943,00.html

    Hopefully this continues. I would like to see this same statement from Islamic leaders throughout the world.
    Last edited by Divinus Arma; 07-28-2005 at 21:56.
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  2. #2
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163943,00.html

    Hopefully this continues. I would like to see this same statement from Islamic leaders throughout the world.
    Couldn't agree with you more.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    I'd definately like to see more of this condemnation rather than the desperate rumaging for reasons to justify their horrendous acts of violence.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Great news.. unfortunately the American muslim population is not the problem, and its really in doubt if this will have any sway anywhere else in the world.

    A good step though, even though theyve been saying it for years, it seems to be getting more coverage now.

    It makes you proud to be American when you hear of such an strong statement coming out of the American muslim community after such shoddy statements coming out of Europe - and of course the downright support coming from many muslim leaders in the mideast.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    after such shoddy statements coming out of Europe
    Actually the muslim leaders in the UK already issued a fatwa (and IIRC the same happened in Spain)

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Well, I hate to say it, but I owe LeftEyeNine & a few other folks an apology. We've been going around and around about how thorough the condemnation by the muslim world has been. He and others have been maintaining that it's pretty widespread condemnation, I said it didn't seem that way and if anything, the silence had been deafening.

    Well, I'm going to do this in it's own thread, but actually, according to a poll by Al-Jazeera of it's viewing audience, the association of Islam to violence has a lot of muslims upset, and the largest group, 36%, blames Islam itself and they feel they haven't spoken out loudly enough against it. Apparently, there's been a recent flux of condemnations in pan-Arabic newspapers & other media.

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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Many Muslim leaders overseas have made similar statements in recent weeks, but some have left an opening for violence to be used in certain situations. One group of British Muslim leaders who denounced the July 7 attacks in London said suicide bombings could still be justified against an occupying power ó drawing criticism that it invited violence in Iraq, where civilians along with coalition troops have been killed.


    Ive read other news reports that offer an even bleaker picture.. and knowing the European muslim community, i dont doubt them.

    Things are different in America.. as far as I can tell from observing both cultures. I would guess the percentage of unassimilated hateful muslims in the US is much lower than in Europe... thats not a bash of any kind, its just the way things are - or seem to be.

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    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Is saying something like "What you terrorists done is wrong", really going to solve the problem. Its good that the leaders have said something, but the people carrying out and organizing these bombings arent civilsed human beings.
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by King Ragnar
    Is saying something like "What you terrorists done is wrong", really going to solve the problem. Its good that the leaders have said something, but the people carrying out and organizing these bombings arent civilsed human beings.
    It is a good start. A hure part of the problem is that Muslim leaders legitimize terrorism and extremism. The more that young muslims hear that it is okay to kill in the name of God, the more it is apt to occur.

    This alone will not solve the problem, but it is a huge part of the equation.

    Yes, the people who are doing the bombings are screwed up. But they are raised from birth to hate America and Israel. In some parts of the world, it is all they will learn. Changing this is a first step.

    In war we go after weapons factories. The extremist madrasa is a weapons factory.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Actually the muslim leaders in the UK already issued a fatwa (and IIRC the same happened in Spain)
    Really? Read the article. It said:

    Many Muslim leaders overseas have made similar statements in recent weeks, but some have left an opening for violence to be used in certain situations. One group of British Muslim leaders who denounced the July 7 attacks in London said suicide bombings could still be justified against an occupying power ó drawing criticism that it invited violence in Iraq, where civilians along with coalition troops have been killed.
    Seems like an empty fatwa to me. This is different in that it is so sweeping and broad. Much better.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    It makes you proud to be American when you hear of such an strong statement coming out of the American muslim community after such shoddy statements coming out of Europe
    The Muslim Council of Britain utterly condemns today's indiscriminate acts of terror in London. These evil deeds make victims of us all. It is our humanity that must bring us shoulder to shoulder to condemn, to oppose and to overcome those who would spread fear, hatred and death.

    Our sympathies and our prayers are with the victims, their families and friends. We extend our support and gratitude to the emergency services, the police and all the frontline services charged with our collective security.

    "The evil people who planned and carried out these series of explosions in London this morning want to demoralize us as a nation and divide us as a people. All of us must unite in helping the police to capture these murderers. Yesterday we celebrated as Londoners, euphoric that our great city had secured the Olympic Games. Today we watch aghast as we witness a series of brutal attacks upon our capital city. We were together in our celebration, we must remain together in our time of crisis," said Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General of the MCB.

    "We must and will be united in common determination that terror cannot succeed. It is now the duty of all us Britons to be vigilant and actively support efforts to bring those responsible to justice," he added.
    Does this sound particularly 'shoddy' to you?


    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    and of course the downright support coming from many muslim leaders in the mideast.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4660415.stm

    Many of the reactions are from leaders of middle-eastern nations.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Divinus Arma, it just says "one group blah blah blah". That isn't saying that the acutal issuers of the fatwas weren't sincere.

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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    Divinus Arma, it just says "one group blah blah blah". That isn't saying that the acutal issuers of the fatwas weren't sincere.
    Please clarify this, my hippie friend.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus
    Does this sound particularly 'shoddy' to you?
    Where is the rest of it? I know they qualified it with a caveat of some sort.

    I'm tired of all your lies!
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    What is a Fiqh? I don't know the Muslim hierarchy of positions any better than I know the Hindus.

    Fiqh=
    The Arabic word fiqh means knowledge, understanding and comprehension. It refers to the legal rulings of the Muslim scholars, based on their knowledge of the shari`ah; and as such is the third source of rulings. The science of fiqh started in the second century after Hijrah, when the Islamic state expanded and faced several issues which were not explicitly covered in the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). Rulings based on the unanimity of Muslim scholars and direct analogy are binding. The four Sunni schools of thought, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali, are identical in approximately 75% of their legal conclusions. Variances in the remaining questions are traceable to methodological differences in understanding or authentication of the primary textual evidence. Differing viewpoints sometimes exist even within a single school of thought.
    From http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/shar...roduction.html

    Just in case anyone else was curious. And I might add, interesting article too!

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Things are different in America.. as far as I can tell from observing both cultures. I would guess the percentage of unassimilated hateful muslims in the US is much lower than in Europe... thats not a bash of any kind, its just the way things are - or seem to be.
    That's probably very true. The US has an amazing capacity to absorb and assimilite immigrants.

    It never ceases to amaze me how immigrants of whatever destination turn into Americans almost the minute they set foot on American soil. Over here, many second, even third generation non-westerners seem to regard themselves as Algerian or Senegalese or something in the first place. French, if at all, in second place. The whole 'Algerian from France' rather than 'American of this or that heritage' thing.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Latino's / Mexicans seem to be the possible exception, they're more reminiscent of the way immigrant communities here cling on to their own language and communities and form a subculture that is more important to their identity than that of their new country.
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    The Sword of Rome Member Marcellus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Where is the rest of it? I know they qualified it with a caveat of some sort.

    I'm tired of all your lies!
    http://www.mcb.org.uk/mcbdirect/feature.php?ann_id=1046

    From their website. No caveats at all. And if they wanted to express some sort of reservation, then they would have put it on their website. Read the statement again:

    The Muslim Council of Britain utterly condemns today's indiscriminate acts of terror in London.
    We must and will be united in common determination that terror cannot succeed
    It doesn't sound like they are planning to put in any caveats from the strength of the opening.
    "Look Iíve got my old pledge card a bit battered and crumpled we said weíd provide more turches churches teachers and we have I can remember when people used to say the Japanese are better than us the Germans are better than us the French are better than us well itís great to be able to say weíre better than them I think Mr Kennedy well we all congratulate on his baby and the Tories are you remembering what Iím remembering boom and bust negative equity remember Mr Howard I mean are you thinking what Iím thinking Iím remembering itís all a bit wonky isnít it?"

    -Wise words from John Prescott

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    Please clarify this, my hippie friend.
    Sure. Just because one group said that "suicide bombings could still be justified against an occupying power ó drawing criticism that it invited violence in Iraq, where civilians along with coalition troops have been killed.", doesn't mean every group had such caveats, as you put it, on their condemnation.

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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    I salute and honor these brave men to stand up against an enemy that does not use words, but death to accomplish their goals. This is definitely a step in the right direction and very brave for these guys to stand up and be counted. God bless them...
    RIP Tosa

  20. #20

    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    When I saw this thread I thought it was going to be another meaningless condemnation while the condemners were secretly smiling and agreeing. This does not seem to be the case and I think this is the important statement:

    Muslim scholars issued an edict Thursday condemning religious extremism and calling terrorists "criminals, not 'martyrs."
    I also like this one:

    Today we watch aghast as we witness a series of brutal attacks upon our capital city
    OUR capital, not the English or British or your capital, but ours. This is how integration sounds, living on the same estate means nothing but realising that there is an our, we and us means everything.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    That's probably very true. The US has an amazing capacity to absorb and assimilite immigrants.

    It never ceases to amaze me how immigrants of whatever destination turn into Americans almost the minute they set foot on American soil. Over here, many second, even third generation non-westerners seem to regard themselves as Algerian or Senegalese or something in the first place. French, if at all, in second place. The whole 'Algerian from France' rather than 'American of this or that heritage' thing.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Latino's / Mexicans seem to be the possible exception, they're more reminiscent of the way immigrant communities here cling on to their own language and communities and form a subculture that is more important to their identity than that of their new country.
    I would say thats accurate.

    A large part of the mexican american community believes it should be able to retain its culture. They push for bilingual schools and such.

    Some even believe in the concept of "Reconquista" where the mexicans will eventually retake the areas they lost in the war through migration.

    It seems the deeper they get into the country, the more assimilated they become, but close to the border many communities are entirely mexican.

  22. #22
    Slapshooter Senior Member el_slapper's Avatar
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    Default Re : Muslim Scholars Condemn Terrorists

    If there is one thing we frogs should inspire from Yankees, it is assimilation of newcomers. Not that we suck : we do even not do that

    Back on topic, I think the recent attacks made many muslims understand that the Oumma(the muslim communauty) is only an image, and has no real existence in the real world. Therefore, the idea of some muslims might be wrong is beginning to be accepted amongst them.

    Of course, part of the fault also comes from the western world(including France, we also did make blunders - even if we avoided the Iraki one). The colonialist attitude towards muslim countries producing oil did improve our economies, but has shown us as evil crusaders(with reason, I fear).
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