A Terrible Realization

[Psyco]

This morning (afternoon, whatever- it's the summer :) ), after seeing the BI feature on the .com I realized something...

-BI is influencing me to pirate software!-

I buy all of my games (I have the money, so I figure I might as well support the companies). However, after the disappointment that was Rome (no need to argue that in this thread) I really don't think that BI will be worth the money. However, I would like to play it, just to see if they somehow managed to return the game to the level of excellence I *loved* the CA for (Medieval is still my favorite game).

If I pirate it, there is a chance that I will buy it (if I enjoy the expansion, I'll purchase it). Otherwise, there's no way I'd buy it (unless it got rave reviews here (.org), where many share my view of Rome).

Just thought I'd share that.

[Zenicetus]

The argument would be stronger if there wasn't a forum here of like-minded players, who will be posting feedback. Also I think I remember seeing a mention of a BI demo being released at some point. Between those two, I don't see any strong arguments for pirating a "preview" version before deciding.

[Orda Khan]

What is the point of this thread?
It is also against .Org policy

......Orda

[player1]

So you like it, but not like it too much.
Bad excuse for pirating software.


Better one would've been that you live in 3rd world country where average wage is 100$.

[tibilicus]

Pirate software!
Shame on you!
Five minutes in the naughty corner starting from now!

[Psyco]

-(Maybe this topic should be moved to the backroom... The more I think about it, the less this topic seems to fit in the Rome section)-

I think you guys missed the point of the thread. It's about a moral dilema, brought on by the expansion.

I personally hate Rome, so there is no way that I would buy the expansion without playing it first. If I were to pirate it, there is a chance that I would like it, then I would buy it. I would like to see the new content, because I'm curious by nature, but there is no way I would spend the $___ that it would cost just to see it.

Put simply, do you think that it is justified to download an illegal copy, if it would do nothing but raise the company's chance to make money?

-----------------------------

If this is infact moved, I suppose the question could be extended to music as well. Many of the cds I own I only have because I previously downloaded them. There's no way that I would randomly buy (or even find) a Laibach album if I wasn't looking for it because I had heard their songs (which I wouldn't have, without downloading them). It also allows you to support bands that, in your eyes, deserve your support. Every dollar wasted buying a bad album could be used to buy the cds of bands that you like and support.

[player1]

Well the whole problem with gaming industry is that most games have no proper demo.

By proper demo mean something that is 90% same as final game, but limited so you want more.

In RTW terms, that would not be one historic battle, but a campaign limited to for example 20-30 turns, with large and huge cities "locked".

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I understand your point.

However, you're starting to advance a philosophy...

Limited pirating as a form of browsing before purchase

...that is a bit Machiavellian (like your sig). Most would disagree that the end justifies the means in this instance. If you are offered a demo (game, song, movie trailer) by the legitimate authorities that be, then by all means take the opportunity to assess it.

On RTW, you and I disagree. However, I freely acknowledge that it is less than perfect. I still find it diverting...which is the point.

[Zenicetus]

I think you guys missed the point of the thread. It's about a moral dilema, brought on by the expansion.

There is no "moral delimna" with pirated software, at least not in this case where you can get user feedback and a limited demo.

I've been playing computer games for a long time, and I haven't had too much trouble figuring out whether to pick up a new game or not, based on user forum feedback and demos (when available). Software evaluation is a skill, so work on practicing that skill.

I've been burned once or twice, buying things that I ended up not enjoying, but that's the way it goes. I don't feel the software industry owes me free fullscale previews with the chance that I might feel like dipping into my pocket and actually paying for it. That would be what they call "donation ware," and you don't get games this size and quality (even with the gripes) with donationware. Somebody has to pay the bills. So get better at evaluating software by legitimate means.

[player1]

By the way, expansions are usually focused to those players that like the game.

[antisocialmunky]

I thought expansions were focused on whoring out the mileage on a product for all its worth.

[Murmandamus]

There is no justification for piracy.

As mentioned above, you can be sure that there will be copious amounts of community discussion on it. Enough to decide if it will change the game in a way that will make it more to your liking.

As you said, you have the money and like to support the companies. So go buy it and support CA if the above turns out to be true. You want a TW4 yes? If you download it, I doubt you'll buy it. Why would you when you already have it?

As for "evaluation", do you need to see 90% of a movie before you'll go see it in the cinema?

People come up with all kinds of ways to justify piracy but they are just lying to themselves. They only do it because they can easily get something for nothing.

[Psyco]

Limited pirating as a form of browsing before purchase

I'm not even browsing, I know that I won't like BI (it can't be that different than the original game), however I'm hoping to wrong. There's a chance (however slight) that the CA somehow turned the game around, and that I will like it. It's a longshot, but it's better than giving up on the game completely.

If you download it, I doubt you'll buy it. Why would you when you already have it?

Why buy all 5 Rammstein cds after downloading them all? I believe in supporting artists/companies that do good work. Thats why I download in the first place- so I can put my money into products that deserve it.

you can be sure that there will be copious amounts of community discussion on it. Enough to decide if it will change the game in a way that will make it more to your liking.

I doubt that many people sharing my views of the game will be spending the money on the expansion, so I'll be left with the oppinions of people who liked the game in the first place, which wont help my discision at all.

So get better at evaluating software by legitimate means.

If I did that, I wouldn't buy it. If I pirated it, I might buy it. Which has better odds for the company?

Well the whole problem with gaming industry is that most games have no proper demo.

By proper demo [I] mean something that is 90% same as final game, but limited so you want more.

I strongly agree with this. If this were to take place with any regularity, I would renounce piracy completely.
A good example of this is "Mount & Blade". The demo is the full game, with a level cap of 6. That way you get into the game and get see what it is about. You get to see the style, and just generally get a sence of the game. The level cap means that if you start to enjoy it, you will be tempted to buy it. On the flip side, most demos that are released now are highly deceptive. I played the demo for "Imperial Glory" and decided that it had potential, so I was prepared to buy it when school ended (around the release date). Luckily, in the store I saw Cossacks II, which I had been planning on getting, so I got that instead. A few weeks later I remembered "Imperial Glory", and checked it out online. Let's just say I made the right choice...

[wlesmana]

So if your employer thinks you're doing some work but it's not up to his full satisfaction but he still wants you to do the work, he can NOT pay you?


Btw, don't they ALWAYS released a demo? Just like you can borrow a friend's CD or listen to them at the store? So your argument of pirating for "testing" is moot. Lazyness or impatience is no excuse to break the law.

[Gaius Magnus]

If you don't like RTW, then don't play it and don't buy the expansion.

[player1]

I thought expansions were focused on whoring out the mileage on a product for all its worth.

Of course there is also a rule that only games that sell well have expansion.

I remebmer that MOO3 development wanted to make expansions for their game. But since the game floped...

[player1]

This is my oppinion, but I think that main reason why gaming industry gives worse and worse games, is that too many copies of the games that are sold not see even two weeks of casual playing (I'm not talking about games that can be finished in 2 weeks of extensive 8 hours per day playing).

Personally, I think that game that doesn't get played for at least for 2 weeks doesn't deserve to be bought by anyone, and whoever made such game should get bankrupt, and not get money on first grap or preorder, or for being based on the movie.


P.S.
This, in no way has anything to do with RTW of course.

[pezhetairoi]

I prefer to treat it as an investment. It's like before you invest in a company all you have are the words of others and their own reports to inform you. And based on that you invest. You can't say 'I want dividends before I invest.' If you want something out of it, put something into it I say.

If you didn't like RTW, then leave this forum and don't ever come back, because you obviously don't belong here. This forum is for those who love RTW, and love playing it for the experience it gives, despite all our grousing about its flaws and its shortcomings. We love it despite its problems and we give voice to that here, and try to make it better with mods and patches and fixes and suggestions.

Why bother telling us you want to get a pirated BI to try it out before you get it? Firstly, you weren't even asking our opinion. You just 'thought you'd share that.' Like we wanted to know. This is the Colosseum, for RTW discussion. DISCUSSION, man. Not to just say something random (or not) and drop it. At least when we make statements like that we end it with 'what are your views?' What kind of arrogant, pointless---the less said, the better.

Secondly, what makes you think that we'd support your advocation of piracy? The fact that some people have mentioned this is against Org policy should be enough. And looking at your number of posts, which is already respectable, and your join date, which is ancient, you should be enough of a veteran on this site to know that this is openly against the rules, however you try to defend yourself.

This thread is completely pointless, and anyway it already violates rules by the advocation of piracy in the very FIRST post. My thread on the crazy things we do for RTW (because we -LOVE- RTW) was closed for less. So I don't see why your thread should continue its existence when firstly you are advocating an illegal act that is obviously against the rules of the forum, and secondly you fundamentally do not fulfil the criterion of people who should be members of this forum, and therefore have no reason to be here. If you hate RTW, go start a hate-RTW forum, and don't voice it here among a community that will support RTW and will not make unconsidered comments like the ones you just made but will simply vote with their wallets. If you don't like it, then just don't buy it.

Moderators, I wish to table a motion to close this thread. My thread a few months ago, when I was just a newcomer, was closed just for mentioning that I played a pirated RTW because I was saving up for the original version. As I recall the last post went something like 'piracy, however justified, is wrong.' Well, apply it here. In fact, someone already has. I hardly think it consistent behaviour on your part that you let this thread go on for so long despite its initial advocation of piracy.

[sapi]

The ONLY boarderline excuse for piracy in my books is if you have brought a game, ruined the cds, have a corrupt installation and the game is out of 'print'

In this case, you may be justified downloading the game you brought from the internet if it's the only way to play it.

{this thread really should get moved into the backroom}

[pezhetairoi]

backroom, hell. Just close it. It's against the rules already, and MY thread wasn't moved to the backroom.

Hmm I should stop posting for awhile on this thread. I'm angry now and I don't want to annoy anyone else except Psyco.

But yes, close it. There is precedent: the mods closed mine. Since this thread is pretty much the same in infringement and circumstance I only think it appropriate that the same action be dealt to it for consistency's sake, else the guy who made that little furore over the Nazism thing on the forum some time back and got banned will be proved right. Enough said.

[Catiline]

Thread closed...