Camels?

[RandyKapp]

Just out of curiosity, what role (if any) did camels play in battle around the time RTW is set. Its something ive been wondering and i thought you guys might now.

[soibean]

I wondered that too, and why Carthage couldn't create any of these camel units even though the camel resource was in a province of theirs...

[Angadil]

Not really my area of expertise, but ...

I know of literary evidence of camel-riding archers fighting for the Seleucids at Magnesia in 190 BCE. There is probably more evidence of different kinds out there. In any case, my general impression is that they were generally local troops mostly restricted to the Arabian Peninsula and its immediate vicinity that only occasionally made it as far as Magnesia. Only the single-hump camel, the dromedary seems to have been ridden in battle. The two-humped, or Bactrian camel seems to have been important logistically as pack animal and perhaps, as attested much later, as vehicle for mounted infantry. Also, the western limit of the dromedary,at this time seems to have been the Nile Delta, so, probably, there should be no camel troops in northwestern Africa.

[Greek_fire19]

Yep, camels were made extrinct in North africa long before the start period of the game and were not reintroduced until the arab invasions of the 6th Century AD so they shouldn't be available to the Carthaginians or the Numidian rebels.

I'm not sure to what extent they were used in the near east. I guess it's likely that berber rebels will have a camel unit, and maybe the parthians, though I suspect that the 'cataphract camels' were a bit of a fabrication on CA's part (*gasp*) ah well, I'm sure EB has come up with a more historical representation

[RandyKapp]

Would they have presented any advantage over horses in battle?
I can see logistical use since they are better suited to the desert than horses, but i dont see any possible advantage over a horse on a battlefield.

[soibean]

advantages over horses... well they'd be more suited for desert war fare but thats a given. they could scare horses couldn't they? didn't it say in MTW that their scent or some such worked up the horses.

with the camels near carthgage... I have no idea why the resource is there. can Numidia make camel units and maybe CA, or RTR v5.4 which is what Im currently playing, has the camels there for them?

[Keyser]

Would they have presented any advantage over horses in battle?
I can see logistical use since they are better suited to the desert than horses, but i dont see any possible advantage over a horse on a battlefield.

They only have two advantages over horses and i think (but it's only my opinion and i never fought on a horse or on a camel) that those advantages doesn't really worth the speed of a horse...

That's the height and the fact that horses don't like to be too close from camels (in the same they don't like elephants). Or at least that's what i've been told.
Also they are probably more agile over deep sand (or at least are less tired from moving on it).

with the camels near carthgage... I have no idea why the resource is there. can Numidia make camel units and maybe CA, or RTR v5.4 which is what Im currently playing, has the camels there for them?

I believe Vanilla numidians have a camel unit.

[Steppe Merc]

Many steppe people used camels to move about mounted infantry. Some did fight on camels, however, especially in very arid places.

[Angadil]

Cataphract camels: Not entirely a CA fabrication. They are mentioned once in the sources, but they would be too late (aroud 200 CE, but I'm recalling off the top of my head, might be earlier) and it seems they were a sort of one time experiment that was not pursued further.

[pezhetairoi]

...something like the screeching women and roman catholic priests, you mean. Only mentioned once in a while in the sources but still turned into a unit anyway.

[Sfwartir]

A bit off the camel topic, but anyway:

I second pezhetairoi's opinion of the Screeching Women as an unnecessary unit in RTW, but I would object
l e s s to that unit if it was stripped of its attack/defense stats.

Tribal womensfolk would indeed follow their men to battle and give them a real good cheer and such (I'll leave it to the filthy minds of the readers to figure out what sort of things "such" may mean in this context), but not to participate in battle in a direct sense*. Placed behind the battle line and out of harms way, cheering for their men, that's ok. But wielding AXES (and quite good att. stats too) is definately over the edge.



*Yes, there are exeptions, I know. But these are just that - exeptions.

[RandyKapp]

Looks good tho, the principle of the vanilla RTW.
I quite enjoyed useing them.

[jerby]

wel, afaik. camels werent used on a regular bases. and thus EB will not include them: like the burning pigs that were used one/two time(s). Indian wielded Rhino's occasionally, but still it will be ridiculus (but fun) to makw rhino's in EB.

[Steppe Merc]

I think we will have at least one camel unit. Certaintly not the huge amount that was used in vanilla, however.

[Moros]

wel, afaik. camels werent used on a regular bases. and thus EB will not include them: like the burning pigs that were used one/two time(s). Indian wielded Rhino's occasionally, but still it will be ridiculus (but fun) to makw rhino's in EB.

I wouldn't mind some rhino's. they would be one heck of a unit.

[jerby]

yeah, maybe bartix has some rhino's?

@steppe merc.
ahh i see. come to think of it. my first post here was mainly directed to the catapract ones. but now i think about it. vanilla does have a lot of camels

[Eskandeh]

They only have two advantages over horses and i think (but it's only my opinion and i never fought on a horse or on a camel) that those advantages doesn't really worth the speed of a horse...

Camels are actually really quick, they look clumsy but they are very fast, especially over rough terrain. I've been told they are raced in the Emirates. Horses hate them due to their smell, plus they are bigger.

[Keyser]

Camels are actually really quick, they look clumsy but they are very fast, especially over rough terrain. I've been told they are raced in the Emirates. Horses hate them due to their smell, plus they are bigger.

They can run quite fast, i knew that but i think horses still go faster (though not on rough or sandy terrain).
Camels also probably have more stamina (another advantage), but horses are far more nervous and more manoeuverable.
That was what i meant by speed more than real km/h by the way.

[Dux Corvanus]

Camels are specially useful in arid far scenarios where maintaining horses are a hard logistic task.

[bodidley]

Yeah camels are really damn fast, and they can spit Another advantage, I suppose, is that one can ride a horse to death fairly quickly in hot weather, but since I'm not much of a camel rider, I can't personally attest to how much endurance they have.

[skeletor]

Doeas camels spit? (Ithought that was the lama's) Anyway, another advantage with camels is that it carries water, so if your army runs out, and don't have access to unpoisened water, you could cut some open and drink.(yack!)

As for experementation, the 1700'th Swede army experimanted with elk-cavalery. Their huge, and move easaly in rough tarrain and snow. The only probllem was that , when a gun was fiered, they ran directly for the nearest forest(lol)

-Skel-

[Keyser]

Doeas camels spit? (Ithought that was the lama's) Anyway, another advantage with camels is that it carries water, so if your army runs out, and don't have access to unpoisened water, you could cut some open and drink.(yack!)

It was my understanding that they store water in their fat, i wouldn't drink it.

[jerby]

those humps arent hollow, and fillable with water. It's fat.
camels dont spit, afaik. and all of that is completly useless to EB...

[bodidley]

camels dont spit, afaik. and all of that is completly useless to EB...

While I won't argue that it's not useless information, camels most certainly do spit http://www.all-animals.com/bcamels.html

:~p

[Tricon]

As for experementation, the 1700'th Swede army experimanted with elk-cavalery. Their huge, and move easaly in rough tarrain and snow. The only probllem was that , when a gun was fiered, they ran directly for the nearest forest(lol)

-Skel-

Moose riders!
Why not. Dominion II had' em.