Faction re-emergence peculiarities

[Ludens]

The 120% loyalty is required in all provinces a fugitive faction has ever owned, if any are below 120% there is a chance that one or more of those provinces will break out in re-emergence every time a possible heir comes of age.

It is my understanding that for a reemergence to occur, the loyalty of a province has to be below 100%, but every other neighbouring province with a loyalty below 120% has a chance of joining. The 20% extra is just a buffer to prevent loyalty from falling under 100% if something happens (say a crusade fails or a high-influence king dies and is succeeded by a nine-toed retard) or if a reemergence occurs in the province of a neighbouring faction.

Is this correct or am I talking nonsense?

[Procrustes]

I beleive that a faction can only reappear if there was an under-age heir when it disappeared. The AI keeps track of those persons, even though they are never on the board. Once the heir comes of age the AI will do a die roll each turn a province is below 120% loyalty to see if there is a re-appearance. If you wait long enough, any old heirs will eventually die off and the faction will no long be able to reappear.

Yes, a faction can reappear several times in one game - as long as the above conditions are met. I've seen it myself several times.

I once had a game where the French had wiped out the English very early. Many years later I got into a war with the French. I landed a small army in Scotland just to hassle them in their rear as we were fighting along our major border in Europe. I defeated the French, but as I was beseiging the castle the English reappeared in Scotland with three stacks lead by a 70 year old king! Kinda sucked - now I was at war with them, too. (He didn't live long, but turns out he had a brother with him so the English did stick around for a while. I figured they were going to be more trouble to the French than I was, so I got out of the way and made peace with them.)

[Ludens]

I beleive that a faction can only reappear if there was an under-age heir when it disappeared. The AI keeps track of those persons, even though they are never on the board. Once the heir comes of age the AI will do a die roll each turn a province is below 120% loyalty to see if there is a re-appearance. If you wait long enough, any old heirs will eventually die off and the faction will no long be able to reappear.

Thanks for the answer. I guess my observations were off for some reason.

[littlebktruck]

It is my understanding that for a reemergence to occur, the loyalty of a province has to be below 100%, but every other neighbouring province with a loyalty below 120% has a chance of joining. The 20% extra is just a buffer to prevent loyalty from falling under 100% if something happens (say a crusade fails or a high-influence king dies and is succeeded by a nine-toed retard) or if a reemergence occurs in the province of a neighbouring faction.

Is this correct or am I talking nonsense?

I don't think so. For instance, Factions always pop up in rebel provinces, which always have loyalty of 100%.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't think so. For instance, Factions always pop up in rebel provinces, which always have loyalty of 100%.

Too right. I found this out to my cost recently.

I'm the Byz, still holding Naples and the Sicilians are playing havoc with my shipping. After one abortive attack of their on Naples, they decide to sit back, build a level 3 castle in Sicily and build up a two-stack army of mostly Mil Serges, with a smattering of archers, spears, the King's and prince's RKs. In Malta are two more RKs and one spear unit.

Just as I'm accumulating forces for an attack on Sicily, I lose a ship to them which, it transpires, was blocking a move they wanted to make, in preference to Naples. Greece was briefly under-garissoned but safe as long as my ship was in the way. They EMPTIED Sicily, giving me a freebie on the next turn, to invade Greece with both stacks. I abandoned my half-stack, to avoid a siege and give more choice over troop mix to counter attack. Possibly five of my provinces contributed but I think I obliterated them without any of my reinforcements ever having to play an active role.

Their king was still quite young and reported to be heirless when the elimination message popped up. I thought that was the end of them. I let the Maltese be, mainly due to one too few ships leaving a toss-up between restoring sea trade and a risky invasion venture plus it would have diverted troops I needed elsewhere.

Within very few turns, the Sicilians are back. 5 full stacks - more than double their previous maximum army size. Mix of RK's, mounted serges, FMAAs, very few spears, not one MS or UM in sight. They seige out what was once part of their own army, demolish the port and I'm thinking I won't be able to spare enough men to tackle that lot until the very end of the conquest (last stop before the Pope). Heck, I don't even think there's enough room on the map to place the 5+ stacks I'm going to need to take that lot on with any hope of winning.

I thought they'd be broke, with an income of 330 and a maint in the thousands but, somehow, they're now up to 80% farms and have rebuilt the port. Something fishy there....

I don't mind the concept of re-emergence one bit. It's the manner in which it is executed which kind of sucks. How come they can come back with great units but they never bother to mobilise these types before they get eliminated? Okay, it needs good troops to stand a chance of the re-emergence properly re-establishing at least part of the faction's previous holdings but 5 stacks is way OTT for a puny island held by a tiny garrison. Once it has succeeded, why can the AI never disband units it can't possibly afford to maintain?

Or, simpler question, why can't it disband units at all? Such as units made obsolescent by the various training buildings which it does have the sense to put in place.

[littlebktruck]

Sounds rough. I've learned through a couple of my games that leaving rebel provinces of eliminated factions close by is not very wise.

[dgfred]

Sounds rough. I've learned through a couple of my games that leaving rebel provinces of eliminated factions close by is not very wise.

That was my problem . The loyalty was soooo low and the troops
they had sucked so bad that I thought it would be OK to let the Rebels be.
Little did I know English would emerge with Elite troops that they didn't even
have before . What was really bad was that they had not been
eliminated, just restricted to one province. Oh well, live (or die) and learn.

[EatYerGreens]

Sounds like some kind of glitch going on there.

Normally, a re-emergence can't happen until after a faction leader has been eliminated with no heir, at which point any remaining provinces held by their troops should go grey and be marked up as rebels. If they still had a province with red troops, this shouldn't have happened.

Bit of a long shot but it could have been their king got killed, or they couldn't afford the ransom if he'd been captured but, in the very same turn, an heir came of age, so instant re-emergence without time available to have their leftover province properly turn rebel.

If you look closely, the year counter doesn't actually increment until after all the post-battle messages have been displayed. So, in actual fact, you pressed end year, their king died but the re-emergence message appears before the year counter clicks over, whereas it's actually happening in the year to come. The re-emergence battle isn't resolved until the next time end year is pressed.

[dgfred]

I haven't a clue . I had captured the province a turn or two before
then gave it up because I felt I couldn't hold it due to the sorry loyalty and
lack of available troops. The English were down to one province, then both
rebels and these elite horses showed up. The rebels had many more troops
and won the battle vs the English. The next turn the rebels still controlled
the province and the remaining English troops were spread about their now
2 provinces . What do you think is up?