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Thread: Improving our odds against terror

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Improving our odds against terror

    Improving our odds against terror
    Charles Krauthammer (archive)

    July 29, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Recommend to a friend

    WASHINGTON -- Six percent of British Muslims -- more than 100,000 citizens -- thought the July 7 London terror attacks were justified. A quarter of British Muslims merely sympathize with the bombers. Even more shocking, nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain. Yet the most disturbing news from the July 23 London Telegraph poll is that these trends are worse among younger British Muslims.

    These numbers, attesting to a massive failure of assimilation, are inconceivable in the United States with its centuries of successful Americanization. This does not mean that there cannot be isolated cells of American Muslims -- or others, such as McVeigh-types or anti-abortion nuts -- who hate their country and want to attack it. But the massive, teeming suburbs of disaffected and alienated immigrants simply do not exist here.

    Which is why, whatever terror attacks might be in our near future, in the long run America is much safer because its enemies overwhelmingly reside overseas.

    Britain's problem, however, is not just an alienated minority but a suicidal civic openness that permits sheiks and imams to openly preach jihad against Britain. The United States, for all of its openness, does not tolerate this kind of treason. Just this month, an imam from Virginia was put away for life for the kind of incitement that makes Sheik Omar Bakri a sought-after media presence in Britain.

    Britain is now desperately trying to correct its never-neverland hospitality to agitators and inciters. It is proud of its long history of harboring exiles, misfits and revolutionaries from just about everywhere. After all, Karl Marx lived, wrote and died in London. But 52 dead and the near-miss two weeks later are helping Britain place necessity above nostalgia.

    The American response to tightening up after London has been reflexive and idiotic: random bag checks in the New York subways. Random meaning that the people stopped are to be chosen numerically. One in every 5 or 10 or 20.

    This is an obvious absurdity and everyone knows it. It recapitulates the appalling waste of effort and resources we see at airports every day when, for reasons of political correctness, 83-year-old grandmothers from Poughkeepsie are required to remove their shoes in the search for jihadists hungering for paradise.

    The only good thing to be said for this ridiculous policy is that it testifies to the tolerance and good will of Americans, so intent on assuaging the feelings of minority fellow citizens that they are willing to undergo useless indignities and tolerate massive public waste.

    Assuaging feelings is a good thing, but hunting for terrorists in this way is simply nuts. The fact is that jihadist terrorism has been carried out from Bali to Casablanca to Madrid to London to New York City to Washington by young Islamic men of North African, Middle Eastern and South Asian origin.

    This is not a stereotype. It is a simple statistical fact. Yes, you have your shoe-bomber, a mixed-race Muslim convert, who would not fit the profile. But the overwhelming odds are that the guy bent on blowing up your train traces his origins to the Islamic belt stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia.

    Yet we recoil from concentrating bag checks on men who might fit this description. Well, if that is impossible for us to do, then let's work backward. Eliminate classes of people who are obviously not suspects.

    We could start with a little age-pruning -- no one under, say, 13, no one over, say, 60. Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians. Then we could have a huge saving, a 50 percent elimination of waste, by giving a pass to women, except perhaps the most fidgety, sweaty, suspicious-looking, overcoat-wearing, knapsack-bearing young woman, to be identified by the presiding officer.

    You object that with these shortcuts, we might not catch everybody. True. But how many do we catch now with the billions spent patting down grandmothers from Poughkeepsie?

    You object that either plan -- giving special scrutiny to young Islamic men, or, more sensitively, just eliminating certain demographic categories from scrutiny -- will simply encourage the jihadists to start recruiting elderly, Norwegian women.

    OK. We can handle that. Let them try recruiting converts, women and non-usual suspects for suicide missions. That will require a huge new wasteful effort on their part. And, more important, by reducing the pool of possible terrorists from the hundreds of millions to the, at most, tens of thousands, we will have reduced the probability of an attack by a factor of 10,000. Those are far better odds at far less cost to us in money and effort. And infinitely less stupid.
    In other words he asking for profiling. How outragous. But is it more outragous than patting down some 80 year old Grandma from Sweden for bombs? Als he addresses Jags question of what to do about this problem in Britain and gives him the same advice I dd.
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Six percent of British Muslims
    So six percent of three percent of the population , big deal .
    nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain.
    So nearly 20% of 3% of the population feel little or no loyalty . I wonder if you did a survey of the entire population what percentage would feel little loyalty to the country , probably a lot more than 0.6% .

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    I think Tribesman is right there should be also the figures of whole people of Britain.
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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Why do we bother with posts like that?

    Just read one paragraph:


    We could start with a little age-pruning -- no one under, say, 13, no one over, say, 60. Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians. Then we could have a huge saving, a 50 percent elimination of waste, by giving a pass to women, except perhaps the most fidgety, sweaty, suspicious-looking, overcoat-wearing, knapsack-bearing young woman, to be identified by the presiding officer.


    What next? White people can sit at the front of the bus and the 'rest' at the back? Good old tried american method....
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    I think Tribesman is right there should be also the figures of whole people of Britain.
    Well my point was there are Welsh/Scots and Irish nationalists all of which have had groups involved in terrorism who would have little loyalty to Britain , plus Cornish nationalists who as far as I know havn't taken the violent option yet (unless you count the annual confrontations around Rock and Polzeath ) then you have the eurocentrics who consider themselves primarily European rather than British and large numbers from various ethnic origins and those who basically have no notions of "patriotic loyalty" whatsoever .

    While it is alarming that some people feel the suicide bombings were justified and some more people feel some sympathy with whatever it is they think the bombers were trying to achieve (what was the question they were asked"do you have sympathy with those who oppose the actions of Britain in the Middle East ? " or "do you have sympathy with people who blow up innocent people on trains ? " ) .
    I don't consider it that big a deal and the authors use of the figures is misleading .
    And as for this bit....
    Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians.
    How can you visually differentiate between some Hispanics and North Africans or some Malaysians and Chinese , what happens if you let a Hispanic Phillipino suicide bomber walk through while you are stopping an Middle Eastern Maronite .
    Any one read about that incident on the NY tour bus last week where they took off the 5 Asian suspects ?
    Ooops sorry ,we thought you were Pakistanis not Indians

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Why do we bother with posts like that?
    They're informative, if only because they point to the prevalence of bad ideas. Mr Krauthammer belongs to the half of mankind that thinks most issues are 'really simple if you look at them'. Taxation is really simple. Crime is really really simple and foreign policy is even simpler. So national security must be a no-brainer, right?
    Last edited by Adrian II; 07-30-2005 at 17:02.
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    Pining for the glory days... Member lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    WASHINGTON -- Six percent of British Muslims -- more than 100,000 citizens -- thought the July 7 London terror attacks were justified. A quarter of British Muslims merely sympathize with the bombers. Even more shocking, nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain. Yet the most disturbing news from the July 23 London Telegraph poll is that these trends are worse among younger British Muslims.
    Ok, so its 'only' 100,000 people.

    Thats not really the point.

    100,000 think the attacks were justified...I wonder how many will think its justified when the NF or C18 decide its 'justified' to bomb them???

    one-fifth feel no loyalty to Britain...ok, fair enough...perhaps they might consider doing everyone a favour and moving somewhere they do feel loyal too....at least then they wouldnt be hypocrites.

    I dont care if 1 or 1million people feel its was justified or not, I dont want to live with them, nor should they have any benefits of living here.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    They're informative, if only because they point to the prevalence of bad ideas. Mr Krauthammer belongs to the moronic half of mankind that thinks most issues are 'really simple if you look at them'. Taxation is really simple. Crime is really really simple and foreign policy is even simpler. So national security must be a no-brainer, right?
    Here we go again and this time its Adrian. I cant believe it. Dont attack the mans ideas just call him a moron. That moronic half of mankind you refer to sounds like a little hidden dig at conservatismw. Admit it you were addressing all of us who dont agree with you of being morons. In fact you are calling half of mankind morons.

    I dont care if 1 or 1million people feel its was justified or not, I dont want to live with them, nor should they have any benefits of living here.
    Im glad somebody gets it.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    His solution to start discrimination of young Muslim men,would only benefit the cause of the extremist terrorist.If their goal is to make Christians and Muslims hate each others guts.How much easier it would be to preacher hate among muslims after that.It seems that the writer has the same wiew in those terrorists attacks then Wahhabist do,that this is a war with two civilizations,rather then attacks of some madmen.
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    It's something European I guess. In Holland too whenever one talks in private about terrorism it's almost always about Islamic extremists, but when push comes to shove it's very rare that people actually openly state that there is a problem among the Muslim community. If there's a solution to the problem there's no way it'll happen if that particular group doesn't get into line and start admitting that they're partially responsible for extremism; yet if anything is to be done governments need to make it clear that until Muslim communities and specifically religious leaders start to take that responsibility they can't be considered a fully intergrated part of society, which politicians are reluctant to do. Not very PC as far as they're concerned.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Here we go again and this time its Adrian. I cant believe it. Dont attack the mans ideas just call him a moron. That moronic half of mankind you refer to sounds like a little hidden dig at conservatismw. Admit it you were addressing all of us who dont agree with you of being morons. In fact you are calling half of mankind morons.
    Oh booh hooh, how insensitive of me. I've changed it at Ser's request, but somehow it ain't fun here anymore. Bye.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    His solution to start discrimination of young Muslim men,would only benefit the cause of the extremist terrorist.If their goal is to make Christians and Muslims hate each others guts.
    I dont think so. That is unless their already leaning that way. If I were a Muslim not only would I expect to be looked at more carefully but I would be happy to co operat it would show the world that Im serious about finding these people. Its just common sense. If this were a casino and you had to bet on who is the terrorist, the 21 year old darkskined guy named Amhed or the 60 year old Swedish woman in a wheel chair? Its getting to the point where if a blackman commits a crime and a discription his race wont be allowed to be mentioned as its profling. Next to go will be describing him as a man. Its just another way to grow the government.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-30-2005 at 17:20.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Article didnt give the exact figure of the amount of muslims in Britain.I believe its significant with all those Pakistani people over there.If you start to monitor them all,you only create a police state out of Britain.I think the right way would be to start infiltrate the community with undercover officers and to pick up those clerics that spread hate among the muslim community.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 07-30-2005 at 18:28.
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Article didnt give the exact figure of the amount of muslims in Britain.
    Take the 100,000 figure that he gave , work that figure up until you get 100% , then take off a couple of tens of thousands ..... or look at the UK census

    Its getting to the point where if a blackman commits a crime and a discription his race wont be allowed to be mentioned as its profling.
    Profiling Gawain ? And how exactly is this idiot defining the profiling he wants ?........
    Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians. Then we could have a huge saving, a 50 percent elimination of waste, by giving a pass to women, except perhaps the most fidgety, sweaty, suspicious-looking, overcoat-wearing, knapsack-bearing young woman, to be identified by the presiding officer. ....
    pure crap , how can you visually identify a suspects religeon at a train station , even if you are a highly trained "presiding officer"? So I repeat ....
    How can you visually differentiate between some Hispanics and North Africans or some Malaysians and Chinese , what happens if you let a Hispanic Phillipino suicide bomber walk through while you are stopping an Middle Eastern Maronite .
    ....or further more as one of the bombers was jamaican would that mean that every carribean person should also be stopped , as many people of the carribean are hispanic then what happens to excluding the hispanics from the profiling or Americans who are of the same African/mixed heritage as the London bomber ?
    So it goes back to either stamping peoples Religeous beliefs on their papers , or making them wear distinctive symbols on their clothing .

    Adrain was spot on with his response to the posted article and the authors "rationale"
    Mr Krauthammer belongs to the half of mankind that thinks most issues are 'really simple if you look at them'.

    In fact you are calling half of mankind morons.
    Why stop at half Adrian , go for 100% instead , it is far more accurate .
    Mankind eh ? about as reliable as religeous texts .

    Finally ....
    100,000 think the attacks were justified...I wonder how many will think its justified when the NF or C18 decide its 'justified' to bomb them???
    ...probably a similar amount , it just shows there are idiots on every side of the equation .

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Tribesman, if I may be so bold, how would you like to 'improve our odds against terror'?

    Azi
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Profiling Gawain ? And how exactly is this idiot defining the profiling he wants ?........
    Yup hes an idiot. Cant you guys ever come up with anything other than insults not backed up by facts. This guys has done pretty well for himself considering hes an idiot and a moron. Not as well as that other idiot and moron GWB of course.

    pure crap , how can you visually identify a suspects religeon at a train station , even if you are a highly trained "presiding officer"? So I repeat ....

    ....or further more as one of the bombers was jamaican would that mean that every carribean person should also be stopped , as many people of the carribean are hispanic then what happens to excluding the hispanics from the profiling or Americans who are of the same African/mixed heritage as the London bomber ?
    So it goes back to either stamping peoples Religeous beliefs on their papers , or making them wear distinctive symbols on their clothing .
    Lets look at it this way. If you think this is ridiculous

    How can you visually differentiate between some Hispanics and North Africans or some Malaysians and Chinese , what happens if you let a Hispanic Phillipino suicide bomber walk through while you are stopping an Middle Eastern Maronite ..
    Far easier than you can identify those who are not. Why not just search everyone seems to be yours and the governments solution. A very poor one I might add. Come on admit there are certain people you can pretty much discount as a terrorist. The ides as he said is to reduce the number of people we need to inconvience not create a police state. We are wasting vast resources on non sense.

    Why stop at half Adrian , go for 100% instead , it is far more accurate .
    Well then assuming you are part of this mankind we can pretty much ignore anything such morons have to say inculding this one. Nice to see you still have your contempt for your fellow man.
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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    If I were a Muslim not only would I expect to be looked at more carefully but I would be happy to co operat it would show the world that Im serious about finding these people.
    Gawain, you spend half of the day being here trying to defend the terrorism that the administration you support causes, paying no attention to the death toll. Just as those extremist Al Qaeda sympathisers do. The ends allways justify the means. Are you really sure that if you were a Muslim you would posess a totally different character which would make you somehow stand against terrorist acts caused by people closely affiliated to you?

    Because if becoming Muslim is gonna give you such a nice and considerate character then a change of religion would be great


    Its just common sense. If this were a casino and you had to bet on who is the terrorist, the 21 year old darkskined guy named Amhed or the 60 year old Swedish woman in a wheel chair?
    The secret of terrorism is to do the unexpected. While the US spent billions to reinforce security around its embassies, 2 planes chrashed into WTC...

    Also you dont need swedish women. Who wrote this article shows a profound lack of knowledge about Islam and Islamic populations. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who:

    a) Look totally European , including blonde hair and blue eyes....( from the -stan countries )

    b) Are of oriental origin and your average joe airport guy doesnt know how to tell a malay apart from a vietnamese...

    So its useless really.



    Finally, as it was said this would only enrage young Muslims and drive them to extremism ( But as I see most conservative strategy is pushing people to the extreme since it will be able to realise its Christianity Vs Islam hallucination...).
    I am southern European and I can look Arab sometimes. Trust me this screening IS happening to a certain degree. I pass airport inspections MUCH faster when I am untanned and cleanshaven than when I am tanned and have a beard.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Before we go overboard on anti-terrorist security why not minimise other causes of death first.

    Drunk drivers... far more people die from drunk drivers then terrorists... but we don't see political change going pro-drink driving, so why worry so much about terrorists changing the world?
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Tribesman, if I may be so bold, how would you like to 'improve our odds against terror'?
    Stop feeding the beast .

    We are wasting vast resources on non sense.
    Woo-hoo I agree with Gawain .

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Gawain, you spend half of the day being here trying to defend the terrorism that the administration you support causes,

    Thats BS.
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
    Tribesman, if I may be so bold, how would you like to 'improve our odds against terror'?

    Azi
    For me it would be, improved control of guns and explosive substances, stricter "hate crime" legislation and a special police intelligence force against terrorism. I think that would get better results than anything else.

    Terrorism requires a lot of planning and organizing, which require unusual activities. Monitoring of the crucial parts like purchases, would do a lot.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    or me it would be, improved control of guns and explosive substances,
    Since explosives can be made from a wide variety of everyday substances how do you propose to enforce that ? While some bombings have been carried out using purpose made explosives which have either been stolen or obtained on the grey and black markets , many are carried out using normal domestic or agricultural products . I believe perfume was one of the ingredients in the London bombings , so how can you stop people buying perfume ?

    a special police intelligence force against terrorism.
    These are already in existance on national and international levels . Though as the German based terrorists who were able to walk free from court do show , there is a lack of co-ordination and sharing of information at many levels (even internally) .

    . Monitoring of the crucial parts like purchases, would do a lot.
    How ? they can already access details of your purchases if you use credit/debit facilities , what do they do if you use cash ?

    Terrorism requires a lot of planning and organizing, which require unusual activities.
    Terrorism requires one person with a grudge and a little spare time on their hands . It becomes a major problem when you have lots of people who have a grudge , if a lot of those people have the same grudge then it becomes a real major problem .

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    [QUOTE=Tribesman] Tribesman, if I may be so bold, how would you like to 'improve our odds against terror'? Stop feeding the beast. [\QUOTE]

    It sure is easier to shoot down others ideas than come up with your own isn't it? What does this mean? bmolsson had some good ideas, but I knew they were already implemented. Instead of attacking him, how about something more substantial than 'stop feeding the beast'.

    'Stop feeding the beast' humm...let me see

    1. Stop sending money and food to the countries with extremists (yup, there is a good way to do it, let's starve 'em out!)
    2. Stop sending bits and pieces of our culture over there (heck, I don't want some of it myself, but I don't think this would work either)
    3. Stop supporting Israel (...we could...I guess...but why? Israel and Turkey are the only functioning democracies in the region... seems kind of cold-hearted)
    4. Stop interfering in the affairs of Moslem nations (now THIS sounds like a winner. Too bad if the US [and the rest of the West] does just ignore what happens, we are hated for doing nothing [i.e. whatever Yugoslavia is called this week])
    5. Stop allowing Moslems (or people who look Moslem) into our countries (...this might work...but I'd rather not see it implemented. The people who are going to fix those nations need an education, and the West is the best place to get it right now)

    That about covers how I interpret 'stop feeding the beast'.

    Azi
    Last edited by Azi Tohak; 07-31-2005 at 20:05.
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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Youth wing of UK Muslim group calls for jihad

    This may worsen our odds in the long term. They are training them young in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Herald
    Youth wing of UK Muslim group calls for jihad

    01.08.05

    By Shiv Malik

    Children as young as 11 are being targeted by radical Muslims who appear to have infiltrated a mainstream Muslim website, The Independent on Sunday can reveal. Literature aimed at children between 11 and 18 on the youth section of the Islamic Society of Britain (ISB) website calls on them to "boycott those who openly wage war against Allah".

    The article containing that quote, entitled "Imam Hassan al-Banna on jihad", goes on to say: "Jihad is a powerful invigorating yearning for Islam's might and glory ... which makes you cry when looking at the weakness of Muslims today and the humiliating tragedies crushing him to death everywhere. "

    Jihad is to be a soldier for Allah. When the bugle calls ... you should be the first to answer the call to join the ranks for jihad."

    Other articles on atheism and secularism appear to be against integration. One article is entitled "Zionism, a black historical record", and another, "Israel simply has no right to exist". The ISB immediately disowned this content after being informed of it by the IoS, and promised to remove it.

    In a statement, a spokesman said: "We were not aware of the material being on the website and it is not in agreement and consistency with the ethos and message of the organisation. We will immediately look at this and remove anything that is disagreeable and apologise for any offence that has been caused."

    Nadeem Malik, a vice-president of the ISB, added that the literature was the responsibility of the organisation's youth wing, Young Muslims, which has a degree of autonomy. "Anything that is there is within the remit of the ISB," he said. "I'm not going to justify what is on there. But if it is on there it is a very small part of a much bigger structure that is very much against those views."

    He added that the ISB and Young Muslims UK were merged in 1994, and internal debate has created a contradiction of views in the organisation. At the heart of that debate is whether Muslims interpret the Koran literally or within its historical context.

    This has led to a situation where the mainstream of Muslims in the UK believe in integration, while a small, vocal minority is opposed to Muslims living within a non-Muslim structure of law and education. Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is non-violent, is one example of the radical groups.

    It is made up of professionals - managers, academics and doctors - and has a membership of between 2,000 and 3,000. But its strict interpretation of the Koran leads it to instruct its members not to vote in a political system dominated by Kaffirs, or unbelievers. During this year's election, its members were told that to vote was forbidden by God.

    - INDEPENDENT
    Last edited by kiwitt; 08-01-2005 at 00:39.
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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    One way would be to regulate the education and appointment of imams. A surprisingly large number of preachers are imported from abroad often from nice friendly countries such as Pakistan. Their background and training is rarely checked as I understand it, and their beliefs are more likely to be fundamentalist. However this is primarily a self-regulation issue for Islam in this country and I fear too many Moslem leaders are living in denial still.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Azi , #3 don't stop supporting them , but balance the support - and no I don't mean give equal amounts of money to a military dictatorship to the south just to achieve petty political gains -if every other nation in the world turns round and says ..."oi you are out of order , stop that shit now" and one country turns round and says "they can do whatever they want as they are our friends" then that is feeding the beast.
    Supporting dictatorships who are oppressing their own or neighbouring people is feeding the beast .
    Funding and training terrorists for your own short term aims is feeding the beast .

  27. #27
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    It is right to use statistical information in investigations. If the police is looking for a rapist, would it be sexist only to check men? It is discrimination when you don`t get a job because of your religion or can`t enter a country because your name sounds Arabian, but it is not discrimination when you get checked by the police more often because you fit into a statistically generated profile.

  28. #28
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Azi , #3 don't stop supporting them , but balance the support - and no I don't mean give equal amounts of money to a military dictatorship to the south just to achieve petty political gains -if every other nation in the world turns round and says ..."oi you are out of order , stop that shit now" and one country turns round and says "they can do whatever they want as they are our friends" then that is feeding the beast.
    Supporting dictatorships who are oppressing their own or neighbouring people is feeding the beast .
    Funding and training terrorists for your own short term aims is feeding the beast .
    As much as I agree you, no one can predit the future, only try and guide it. What happened with AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan in the 80s was politics. Western nations (not just the US) thought the USSR was our biggest threat so we used the little guys (which they liked) to keep the USSR off balance. It worked didn't it?

    So then it came around and bit us. Could anyone have predicted that twenty years ago? Mabye. Would anyone important have believed that person? At the expense of plugging away at the current threat (the USSR)? No.

    And sure, it would be great if the UN could reach a consensus and force, through diplomatic means, a nation that is out of line back into line... but life doesn't work like that. I have no doubt that every man (and woman too) in our Armed Forces thread would have loved to have spent their time building something for the poor, not serving with a war on. But talking alone does not work as often as anyone would like. That is why you need the stick. And sometimes the stick is a less-despotic (at least at the moment) group that can you can use.

    Is it fair? Does that really matter? It never has in the past.

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  29. #29
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    or me it would be, improved control of guns and explosive substances,
    Since explosives can be made from a wide variety of everyday substances how do you propose to enforce that ? While some bombings have been carried out using purpose made explosives which have either been stolen or obtained on the grey and black markets , many are carried out using normal domestic or agricultural products . I believe perfume was one of the ingredients in the London bombings , so how can you stop people buying perfume ?

    a special police intelligence force against terrorism.
    These are already in existance on national and international levels . Though as the German based terrorists who were able to walk free from court do show , there is a lack of co-ordination and sharing of information at many levels (even internally) .

    . Monitoring of the crucial parts like purchases, would do a lot.
    How ? they can already access details of your purchases if you use credit/debit facilities , what do they do if you use cash ?

    Terrorism requires a lot of planning and organizing, which require unusual activities.
    Terrorism requires one person with a grudge and a little spare time on their hands . It becomes a major problem when you have lots of people who have a grudge , if a lot of those people have the same grudge then it becomes a real major problem .
    There are some crucial ingredients to create efficient bombs, which mostly already are controlled. If the current special police doesn't work, then we have to get it working and not just cross our arms and say it doesn't work. And terrorism is more than one person with a grudge. The step from having a grudge and become a suicide bomber is rather large.....

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