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  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Improving our odds against terror

    Improving our odds against terror
    Charles Krauthammer (archive)

    July 29, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Recommend to a friend

    WASHINGTON -- Six percent of British Muslims -- more than 100,000 citizens -- thought the July 7 London terror attacks were justified. A quarter of British Muslims merely sympathize with the bombers. Even more shocking, nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain. Yet the most disturbing news from the July 23 London Telegraph poll is that these trends are worse among younger British Muslims.

    These numbers, attesting to a massive failure of assimilation, are inconceivable in the United States with its centuries of successful Americanization. This does not mean that there cannot be isolated cells of American Muslims -- or others, such as McVeigh-types or anti-abortion nuts -- who hate their country and want to attack it. But the massive, teeming suburbs of disaffected and alienated immigrants simply do not exist here.

    Which is why, whatever terror attacks might be in our near future, in the long run America is much safer because its enemies overwhelmingly reside overseas.

    Britain's problem, however, is not just an alienated minority but a suicidal civic openness that permits sheiks and imams to openly preach jihad against Britain. The United States, for all of its openness, does not tolerate this kind of treason. Just this month, an imam from Virginia was put away for life for the kind of incitement that makes Sheik Omar Bakri a sought-after media presence in Britain.

    Britain is now desperately trying to correct its never-neverland hospitality to agitators and inciters. It is proud of its long history of harboring exiles, misfits and revolutionaries from just about everywhere. After all, Karl Marx lived, wrote and died in London. But 52 dead and the near-miss two weeks later are helping Britain place necessity above nostalgia.

    The American response to tightening up after London has been reflexive and idiotic: random bag checks in the New York subways. Random meaning that the people stopped are to be chosen numerically. One in every 5 or 10 or 20.

    This is an obvious absurdity and everyone knows it. It recapitulates the appalling waste of effort and resources we see at airports every day when, for reasons of political correctness, 83-year-old grandmothers from Poughkeepsie are required to remove their shoes in the search for jihadists hungering for paradise.

    The only good thing to be said for this ridiculous policy is that it testifies to the tolerance and good will of Americans, so intent on assuaging the feelings of minority fellow citizens that they are willing to undergo useless indignities and tolerate massive public waste.

    Assuaging feelings is a good thing, but hunting for terrorists in this way is simply nuts. The fact is that jihadist terrorism has been carried out from Bali to Casablanca to Madrid to London to New York City to Washington by young Islamic men of North African, Middle Eastern and South Asian origin.

    This is not a stereotype. It is a simple statistical fact. Yes, you have your shoe-bomber, a mixed-race Muslim convert, who would not fit the profile. But the overwhelming odds are that the guy bent on blowing up your train traces his origins to the Islamic belt stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia.

    Yet we recoil from concentrating bag checks on men who might fit this description. Well, if that is impossible for us to do, then let's work backward. Eliminate classes of people who are obviously not suspects.

    We could start with a little age-pruning -- no one under, say, 13, no one over, say, 60. Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians. Then we could have a huge saving, a 50 percent elimination of waste, by giving a pass to women, except perhaps the most fidgety, sweaty, suspicious-looking, overcoat-wearing, knapsack-bearing young woman, to be identified by the presiding officer.

    You object that with these shortcuts, we might not catch everybody. True. But how many do we catch now with the billions spent patting down grandmothers from Poughkeepsie?

    You object that either plan -- giving special scrutiny to young Islamic men, or, more sensitively, just eliminating certain demographic categories from scrutiny -- will simply encourage the jihadists to start recruiting elderly, Norwegian women.

    OK. We can handle that. Let them try recruiting converts, women and non-usual suspects for suicide missions. That will require a huge new wasteful effort on their part. And, more important, by reducing the pool of possible terrorists from the hundreds of millions to the, at most, tens of thousands, we will have reduced the probability of an attack by a factor of 10,000. Those are far better odds at far less cost to us in money and effort. And infinitely less stupid.
    In other words he asking for profiling. How outragous. But is it more outragous than patting down some 80 year old Grandma from Sweden for bombs? Als he addresses Jags question of what to do about this problem in Britain and gives him the same advice I dd.
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Six percent of British Muslims
    So six percent of three percent of the population , big deal .
    nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain.
    So nearly 20% of 3% of the population feel little or no loyalty . I wonder if you did a survey of the entire population what percentage would feel little loyalty to the country , probably a lot more than 0.6% .

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    I think Tribesman is right there should be also the figures of whole people of Britain.
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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Why do we bother with posts like that?

    Just read one paragraph:


    We could start with a little age-pruning -- no one under, say, 13, no one over, say, 60. Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians. Then we could have a huge saving, a 50 percent elimination of waste, by giving a pass to women, except perhaps the most fidgety, sweaty, suspicious-looking, overcoat-wearing, knapsack-bearing young woman, to be identified by the presiding officer.


    What next? White people can sit at the front of the bus and the 'rest' at the back? Good old tried american method....
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    I think Tribesman is right there should be also the figures of whole people of Britain.
    Well my point was there are Welsh/Scots and Irish nationalists all of which have had groups involved in terrorism who would have little loyalty to Britain , plus Cornish nationalists who as far as I know havn't taken the violent option yet (unless you count the annual confrontations around Rock and Polzeath ) then you have the eurocentrics who consider themselves primarily European rather than British and large numbers from various ethnic origins and those who basically have no notions of "patriotic loyalty" whatsoever .

    While it is alarming that some people feel the suicide bombings were justified and some more people feel some sympathy with whatever it is they think the bombers were trying to achieve (what was the question they were asked"do you have sympathy with those who oppose the actions of Britain in the Middle East ? " or "do you have sympathy with people who blow up innocent people on trains ? " ) .
    I don't consider it that big a deal and the authors use of the figures is misleading .
    And as for this bit....
    Then we could exempt whole ethnic populations, a list that could immediately start with Hispanics, Scandinavians and East Asians.
    How can you visually differentiate between some Hispanics and North Africans or some Malaysians and Chinese , what happens if you let a Hispanic Phillipino suicide bomber walk through while you are stopping an Middle Eastern Maronite .
    Any one read about that incident on the NY tour bus last week where they took off the 5 Asian suspects ?
    Ooops sorry ,we thought you were Pakistanis not Indians

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Why do we bother with posts like that?
    They're informative, if only because they point to the prevalence of bad ideas. Mr Krauthammer belongs to the half of mankind that thinks most issues are 'really simple if you look at them'. Taxation is really simple. Crime is really really simple and foreign policy is even simpler. So national security must be a no-brainer, right?
    Last edited by Adrian II; 07-30-2005 at 17:02.
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    Pining for the glory days... Member lancelot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    WASHINGTON -- Six percent of British Muslims -- more than 100,000 citizens -- thought the July 7 London terror attacks were justified. A quarter of British Muslims merely sympathize with the bombers. Even more shocking, nearly one-fifth of British Muslims say they feel little or no loyalty to Britain. Yet the most disturbing news from the July 23 London Telegraph poll is that these trends are worse among younger British Muslims.
    Ok, so its 'only' 100,000 people.

    Thats not really the point.

    100,000 think the attacks were justified...I wonder how many will think its justified when the NF or C18 decide its 'justified' to bomb them???

    one-fifth feel no loyalty to Britain...ok, fair enough...perhaps they might consider doing everyone a favour and moving somewhere they do feel loyal too....at least then they wouldnt be hypocrites.

    I dont care if 1 or 1million people feel its was justified or not, I dont want to live with them, nor should they have any benefits of living here.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    They're informative, if only because they point to the prevalence of bad ideas. Mr Krauthammer belongs to the moronic half of mankind that thinks most issues are 'really simple if you look at them'. Taxation is really simple. Crime is really really simple and foreign policy is even simpler. So national security must be a no-brainer, right?
    Here we go again and this time its Adrian. I cant believe it. Dont attack the mans ideas just call him a moron. That moronic half of mankind you refer to sounds like a little hidden dig at conservatismw. Admit it you were addressing all of us who dont agree with you of being morons. In fact you are calling half of mankind morons.

    I dont care if 1 or 1million people feel its was justified or not, I dont want to live with them, nor should they have any benefits of living here.
    Im glad somebody gets it.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    His solution to start discrimination of young Muslim men,would only benefit the cause of the extremist terrorist.If their goal is to make Christians and Muslims hate each others guts.How much easier it would be to preacher hate among muslims after that.It seems that the writer has the same wiew in those terrorists attacks then Wahhabist do,that this is a war with two civilizations,rather then attacks of some madmen.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    His solution to start discrimination of young Muslim men,would only benefit the cause of the extremist terrorist.If their goal is to make Christians and Muslims hate each others guts.
    I dont think so. That is unless their already leaning that way. If I were a Muslim not only would I expect to be looked at more carefully but I would be happy to co operat it would show the world that Im serious about finding these people. Its just common sense. If this were a casino and you had to bet on who is the terrorist, the 21 year old darkskined guy named Amhed or the 60 year old Swedish woman in a wheel chair? Its getting to the point where if a blackman commits a crime and a discription his race wont be allowed to be mentioned as its profling. Next to go will be describing him as a man. Its just another way to grow the government.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-30-2005 at 17:20.
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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Article didnt give the exact figure of the amount of muslims in Britain.I believe its significant with all those Pakistani people over there.If you start to monitor them all,you only create a police state out of Britain.I think the right way would be to start infiltrate the community with undercover officers and to pick up those clerics that spread hate among the muslim community.
    Last edited by Kagemusha; 07-30-2005 at 18:28.
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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    If I were a Muslim not only would I expect to be looked at more carefully but I would be happy to co operat it would show the world that Im serious about finding these people.
    Gawain, you spend half of the day being here trying to defend the terrorism that the administration you support causes, paying no attention to the death toll. Just as those extremist Al Qaeda sympathisers do. The ends allways justify the means. Are you really sure that if you were a Muslim you would posess a totally different character which would make you somehow stand against terrorist acts caused by people closely affiliated to you?

    Because if becoming Muslim is gonna give you such a nice and considerate character then a change of religion would be great


    Its just common sense. If this were a casino and you had to bet on who is the terrorist, the 21 year old darkskined guy named Amhed or the 60 year old Swedish woman in a wheel chair?
    The secret of terrorism is to do the unexpected. While the US spent billions to reinforce security around its embassies, 2 planes chrashed into WTC...

    Also you dont need swedish women. Who wrote this article shows a profound lack of knowledge about Islam and Islamic populations. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who:

    a) Look totally European , including blonde hair and blue eyes....( from the -stan countries )

    b) Are of oriental origin and your average joe airport guy doesnt know how to tell a malay apart from a vietnamese...

    So its useless really.



    Finally, as it was said this would only enrage young Muslims and drive them to extremism ( But as I see most conservative strategy is pushing people to the extreme since it will be able to realise its Christianity Vs Islam hallucination...).
    I am southern European and I can look Arab sometimes. Trust me this screening IS happening to a certain degree. I pass airport inspections MUCH faster when I am untanned and cleanshaven than when I am tanned and have a beard.
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    It's something European I guess. In Holland too whenever one talks in private about terrorism it's almost always about Islamic extremists, but when push comes to shove it's very rare that people actually openly state that there is a problem among the Muslim community. If there's a solution to the problem there's no way it'll happen if that particular group doesn't get into line and start admitting that they're partially responsible for extremism; yet if anything is to be done governments need to make it clear that until Muslim communities and specifically religious leaders start to take that responsibility they can't be considered a fully intergrated part of society, which politicians are reluctant to do. Not very PC as far as they're concerned.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving our odds against terror

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Here we go again and this time its Adrian. I cant believe it. Dont attack the mans ideas just call him a moron. That moronic half of mankind you refer to sounds like a little hidden dig at conservatismw. Admit it you were addressing all of us who dont agree with you of being morons. In fact you are calling half of mankind morons.
    Oh booh hooh, how insensitive of me. I've changed it at Ser's request, but somehow it ain't fun here anymore. Bye.
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