unit editing

[Kraellin]

hi guys,

i'm an old game player from way back and a map maker as well. i've played literally thousands of computer games since about 1972 when i used to play on mainframes.

i've seen a couple posts in here that suggest that there shld be a unit editor of some sort. i hate to break it to you but this is a bad idea. simply put, this will invite 'cheating'. you can edit terrain, textures, weather and so on with no problem, but as soon as you start editing the units themselves as to their stats you get 'cheating'. this has wrecked many a good online game every time it occurs.

there is also a compatibility issue for multiplay. you'd have to find someone that had the exact same unit values as yourself in order to play online.

and, i believe i saw something on the totalwar.com site that mentioned time stamping. that means that if you do alter the unit values your game will suffer bad effects because the servers are set up to recognize altered unit values and consider them 'hacked games' and throw them out.

from a purely gaming point of view, i agree that it might be nice to be able to play a friend in an altered unit game where one could modify units as they wished or based on a point system where you added points to units as you saw fit. you could then simulate such things as crack troops fighting untrained masses.

but i'm afraid the way the game is set up currently, if you try to alter unit values with a third party editor you might as well throw away ALL multiplayer play because it just wont work for this game as it is.

my best suggestion is to write the game makers and perhaps get them to allow differing koku amounts for opposing teams or differing honor points for opposing teams or both, but please, stay away from third party unit editors; it will only spoil the online game. if time stamping does exist on this game then the only ones capable of altering unit values will be the game creators themselves and even if it doesnt exist then i'd still stay away from it because of compatiblility and 'cheating'.

it's a nice idea, but it just wont work in this game.

K.

[chicken]

Good point Kraellin that would really screw up multiplayer. Imagine playing someone who edited Heavy calvary and hired there attack, and defense power all the way up. And they made them invincible to any attack. Wouldn't that be unfair.

[Rob]

I've looked into the possibility of unit editing and I have not yet found where the unit data is held. I suspect that unit attributes (attack ratings, speed etc.) is hard-coded into the program file, making it extremely difficult to locate and dangerous to edit.

I don't think we will be seeing unit attribute editing any time soon. As far as unit graphics are concerned, these are much easier to edit. But this would only affect the person who has the edited graphics. When playing against that person you would see the normal graphics.

[The Black Ship]

Kinda the same problem I encountered playing/making a mod-pack for AOE. Apain to do, and unless your opponent was using the same mod, only you could see your handiwork

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Answering to Kraellin, mostly:



"i've seen a couple posts in here that suggest that there shld be a unit editor of some sort. i hate to break it to you but this is a bad idea. simply put, this will invite 'cheating'".

Not to mention the number of ppl i am trying to involve in the project who all have experience in developing and programming...
I have personal experience with betatesting and multiplayer compatibility.
All of the unit values and changes to the game, excepted the graphics and sounds which are only related to the single player who has them modified, are to be introduced in a stand-off patch program which would coordinate every single patch added regarding the multiplayer.
These .cpp files appearing in the list of this program, would be shared among players in order to :
prevent cheating
allowing compatibility.


"there is also a compatibility issue for multiplay. you'd have to find someone that had the exact same unit values as yourself in order to play online".

True, the "official values" would be plainly visible in the program window.


"and, i believe i saw something on the totalwar.com site that mentioned time stamping. that means that if you do alter the unit values your game will suffer bad effects because the servers are set up to recognize altered unit values and consider them 'hacked games' and throw them out".

This could be true. A very good point.
Most online games use a server for connection between pla but the host of the game USUALLY hosts on his own ip.
What i mean is that i PRESUME the eaplay server is just a lobby while all of the connection setup and hosting/joining lies in the shogun game on our hard drives.
In other words, eaplay would be a big lobby, nothing more, nothing less.


"from a purely gaming point of view, i agree that it might be nice to be able to play a friend in an altered unit game where one could modify units as they wished or based on a point system where you added points to units as you saw fit. you could then simulate such things as crack troops fighting untrained masses".

All of this has come out of realism issues which the actual stw lacks.
Surely, all type of players would be satisfied with an editor that lets the player choose what kind of game to play, from the realism fanatic (me) to the arcade player


"if time stamping does exist on this game then the only ones capable of altering unit values will be the game creators themselves and even if it doesnt exist then i'd still stay away from it because of compatiblility and 'cheating'".

A good point, i understand ur reasons and am "scared" about that too.
I have tried to contact the programmers and Richie (dreamtime web manager) but yet no answer came back.
All of your points have been signalled and we are all waiting for the 1.13 and see what it's got.

[Rob]

Wouldn't it simply be easier to persuade the developers to alter the game so unit values are loaded from a resource file?

Going to the extent of writing a patch for an executable which you have no documentation - source code or otherwise - for seems a little drastic. I'm a programmer myself and I have doubts about whether it could be done.

Editing unit attributes is ok, since this is likely to be held in a data section and would not require modification of any executable code. But it is possible, even likely, that the incompatibilities this would lead to would be an absolute nightmare.

Unofficial patches have a rather bad reputation and deservedly so. I would certainly never use an unofficial patch on any game of mine. You say .cpp files would be distributed, but how will non-programmers understand them? Presumably an executable version will be distributed with the source file, since very few people have compilers. What is the guarantee that the executable and the source file match?

Do I misunderstand what you are trying to do?

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Quoting Rob:

[B]Wouldn't it simply be easier to persuade the developers to alter the game so unit values are loaded from a resource file?

Dunno, from past experiences, when the project is done...it would be easier to dig for oil with bare hands...
Yes, if the programmers gave out some infos that would really be a GREAT thing towards improvement.

[omissis]

Rob, go check this program with which they made everything compatible with Falcon4, a program i GUESS 30000 times more complex than stw.
It's called f4patch.
http://www.bierling.net/joel/index.htm

I betatested falcon3 and falcon4.

Basically a new .EXE is launched and results are outstanding.
After an year of development and without any help from the microprose, the ibeta company and the so called realism group have thoroughly changed the game to the point NOONE actually plays falcon4 by launching the original exe and no falcon4 player doesn't have this f4patch.

ONce a program like this is done, those who wanna play normal shogun, launch it by shogun.exe.
The others launch it via XXxxXXxXXxx.exe and the parameters of this new exe lie plainly visible in this f4patch.
See with your eyes.

[Kraellin]

ah, i see what yer sayin, yamaga. so essentially you could have multiple executables to launch several diff 'shoguns' if ya wanted to and still retain the original to play with those that didnt have the altered .exe's. or you could have 2 .exe's, the original and one that let you run a unit editor or some such for play with those that wanted to.

if that were possible then the only bugaboo in the works is if the game is time stamped. i do understand that some servers simply do 'hand-offs' to the host player who is then basically running an ip game, but if it's set up like the diablo II servers, which do do time stamping, then it still wont be possible without some sort of alteration by the game makers.

but, that does raise the possibility of doing another thing that diablo II does; it has 2 complete sets of servers, one for 'open' games and one for 'closed' or 'secure' games. the 'open' servers are NOT time stamped and anyone that wants to hack their files and alter parameters may do so and play on the 'open' servers without fear of being banned, while on the 'closed' servers you absolutely cannot hack files in any way. something like that would work very well for shogun as well, i'm thinking.

the other possibility would be to add an option to the game to allow direct ip games where you dont need EA's servers at all. diablo II also has that. it works very well. on ip games and the open servers you can hack away with no penalty and set up whatever you want. on the closed you play the game EXACTLY the way the creators designed it. these options give everyone pretty much what they want. the hackers can hack, the purists are free from hackers...best of both worlds.

K.

[Rob]

It might be possible to have direct IP games by making a new server, though this would be a big undertaking. I wrote a Shogun proxy server a couple of weeks ago that logs the packets being sent to the EA server; the protocol seems fairly straightforward, but I'm a bit too busy too work on it ATM, with the map editor and all

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Yes kraell

it is exactly what i am saying and results are wonderful.

So wonderful in fact that a hundred thousand players around the world don't use the original f4108us.exe anymore.

The story of falcon4 is quite clear and started 2 years later than the expected release date!

They released 2 preversions, 1.04 and 1.05 with major bugs, unplayable.

They released 1.06 and the 1.06 localized (i bought the italian and had to get me a pir8 us version which allowed me to play online for the localized are incompatible and need a localized patch to be updated)

They released the 1.07 us patch.

They released the 1.08 patch.
BEWARE!!! as u can see they did NOT release 1.07 localized patches therefore say, an hispanian not having the us could NOT play the 1.08 online!

The unofficial versions started about with the 1.07.

RP, RP2, RP3 are from ibeta company.
Erazor also released 2 versions (they say he "stole" the main code from the microprose server).
C6 team also made 2 more versions and RP4 is due out very soon.

All of these unofficial patches are coordinated by a program called f4patch.
A player only has to see that he has the same falconxxxx.exe of the others and ask the others about the f4patch settings (that is, WHICH patches are applied) and he's set for multiplayer.

This to those who wish to wait for the ea to make an editor...


if ya wanted to and still retain the original to play with those that didnt have the altered .exe's. or you could have 2 .exe's,

2 or MORE exes, since most assuredly every third party team will have its own exe all ya need is to have the same EXE of the other players.
If an editor is present too, then its infos should be applied BY and IN this standoff coordinating program (f4patch.exe in falcon4 case).
The setting of the editor are emailable, icqable, and readable

Mind that these are facts, not speculations. The creator of f4patch is a genius!

if that were possible then the only bugaboo in the works is if the game is time stamped.

True, this is really the only thing that could mess things up!
But i see maps around...Tosa and ROb are making them and playing. MAYBE this story of timestamp is a big-time lie they go saying to prevent their game to be edited and tweaked.

I believe they are right to do that...perhaps i would try to protect the code for as long as i could myself.

i do understand that some servers simply do 'hand-offs' to the host player who is then basically running an ip game, but if it's set up like the diablo II servers, which do do time stamping, then it still wont be possible without some sort of alteration by the game makers.

Yes, further investigation is definitely needed.
The open-closed servers...need to think about this.
Should a thing like this be applied to an unofficial patch of stw, i bet the totalwar.org would become a lobby at once with publicly posted ips

[Rob]

Not only is there a possibility of a time-stamp, but I believe there is already some form of crack protection included in the game.

The .exe file shogun.exe is not the actual STW program; all it does is launch shogun.icd, which is the actual program. Before doing this it performs other tasks such as CD-checking. This is designed to stop people playing the game without the CD. I imagine it also checks shogun.icd for any unauthorised patches/cracks. This might prevent any unauthorised patches from being used.

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Answering to Rob...and flushing red i think here...


i actually started playing shogun after having downloaded it from a pir8 server...it didn't work.
The second time, i tried to another server and the download was succesful.
I have been playing shogun since sept as the original game only arrived in the shops here 1 month ago.

Thereby i bought it but i had had no problems with the pir8 version. All there's to say, there weren't any movie scenes. The game was cracked perfectly.

[Kraellin]

one last note on this; the time stamping is ONLY done on the units and values, not the maps or anything else, to protect altering of the unit values. i think i saw this mentioned on the totalwar site somewhere...not certain though.

K.

[Rob]

Yes, but forcing people to crack their game in order to install 'patches' will not be popular. I am very much aware of viruses and other things which can affect my system and I don't like the idea of unofficial programs editing software on my PC.

Persuading people to install the kind of software usually found on 'warez' sites will be difficult. Especially if it is to make some dubious fix, such as increasing the cost of muskets. I wouldn't take the risk myself and many others wouldn't either.

Personally I think it would be better to work with the official patches rather than against them. Editing compiled code is a recipe for disaster, particularly if it causes compatibility problems with current/future OFFICIAL patches. I doubt the developers will be in favour of your idea, and it would be very easy for them to release a new patch that breaks everything you have done, forcing you to start all over again every time a new official patch comes out.

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Kraell and Rob:

Yes all what u say is true.

There is only one point in here to clarify:

I don't think any patch or editor will ever be officially released after 1.13.

This is all.
Ppl is never FORCED to crack a game, it's their choice if to install third party utils or not.
I also agree in the "it would be better to work with the official programmers and not on our own...".
The problem here is that the programmers have already released 1.13 and someone else is testing it. When we will get it, do u think that our issues will be heard ? That they will work until next summer on an already sold game ?

The programmers have moved on, guys.

If u want u can have a look a the mps falcon4 forum and see that a million of ppl is awaiting for the release of rp4.
...falcon4.exe made by Gilman Louie and the others no longer exists in the world but on previously sold cds.

History repeats.

[Yamaga Shimazu]

ere we go...why i want the units tweaked.

[omissis]

Too upset to type now...will explain in the file.

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Shopping list:


the calc between hon increase and koku expenses are done, (Teraz, i ll send ya the comparative tables complete as soon as i scannerize the document).

It seems the relationship per honour increase is 0.71
(i.e. 51-71-100-140-196 and so on) THAT is the factor: 0.71
Some things to note here:

1) given the results of our sacred battlefield calculator, honour/rank is SO IMPORTANT that low honoured units charging from flank or rear are indeed almost useless.
This why, using 500 ashigaru against a single 100 unit of monks give those irrealistic results.

2) the factor 0.71 must be changed exponentially.
rising a samurai to a honour of 4 must cost LESS than rising an ashigaru unit at the same honour. This to show that ultra high ashis are extremely rare (that is, in reality, there were none, for peasants are peasants).

3) Basic costs of units must be tweaked.
The cost of an arq/musk compared to ya or sa are ridiculous!
The arq costs the same as the ya and has a gun !!!!!!


Tests for particular rules and particular unit costs are being carried on still. Will let ya know.

[Rob]

The rate of price increase is 40% (two fifths).

This may well be hard-coded into the game code... modifying it could prove to be extremely difficult (next to impossible).

------------------
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[Yamaga Shimazu]

almost as impossible as talking to someone of the dev team ?
How is it possible that none of us have a workable address to them ?

[Rob]

Come to think of it, I've never tried contacting the developers directly.

I'll give it a try tonight.

Besides, humans listen to reason. Computers do not

------------------
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[Rob]

Just to clarify exactly how difficult I mean:

I suspect unit data is hard-coded into the file shogun.icd. This is a binary file and doesn't contain any obvious text strings.

Let's say the attack value for a unit (musketeers for example) is 1 byte in size.

Shogun.icd contains 4,579,373 separate bytes. And there are no clues to explain what they mean. Changing this information means pinpointing 1 byte in 4,579,373 and changing it. And if the developers have been at all sensible, they may well have encrypted this data, making finding it impossible. Technical skill does not help either - there is no programmer's trick to solve this problem.

Finding this information is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I had hoped that either somebody already knew where it was or that there might be some obvious clue but I have found neither. I'm afraid to say that it might be easier just to keep asking the developers

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Rob, what did u discover about the units ?
Will there be the chance to edit costs ?

[Rob]

Not yet.

As I said, it could take nearly forever - and there's no guarantee that the unit data is there at all.

------------------
AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

[barocca]

Rob,
as I understand it the ICD file is encrypted, shogun.exe decrypts it on the fly when run.

I have absolutely no proof of this, so if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
But there's only one way to find out.
Decrypt it.
If you know what I mean...

[Rob]

I do know what you mean

I hadn't thought of that possibility until now

------------------
Rob Hojo

[Addonas]

Do you think that there woudl be any way to make a "proposal" to EA, in a sense show them some work or ideas that may get them interested in releasing some helpful information to a Mod team if anyone was organized enough to gather one. With their support (to a reasonable extent) all of these questions could be answered and any editing a team would want to do could move along at a nice pace.

Perhaps it woudl eb possibel to talk them into releasing some information that could be some sort of "SDK" for Shogun. As it is they've already worked on a map editor that could be changed a bit to allow more freedom to a mapper, in terms of loading some new textures of our own creating, or adding new models that we would have created. All those thigns to change the appearance fo teh game for a mod.

Although... how the HELL do you get amessage to these people? There have been a lot of problems with that, and I've been wondering the same thing, how is that no one has any direct contact to anyone on the dev team taht will actually reach them. We need a renegade programmer who has a score to settle with EA. ;-) Well.. maybe not... but it'd be nice to have some info.

As to wether the game is time stamped or not, would it be possibel to send them at one point or anotehr when someone woudl be ready to release teh first working version of their mod, a file with all of the changes that we have made, so that they could add a file pretty easily without too much of their time taken up to create a file or whatever it is that is needed to prevent a modification to units and the like from existing on teh server.

What about those rumors of "cheaters" in the game, and I'm not talking about mistaken 0 honor cases, where someone thought they had more units than they should.

Well, that's my input to the whole thing.

[Erado San]

I have not a single problem with getting in touch with them. I have four of their staff in my address book.

But I will not serve as a contact for other people.

If you want them to support anything with an SDK (which they may or may not do), get a team together and put your ideas in a clear and concise description, mail it to the Shogun and start praying.

Depending on the moment you can get:

1. no reply. They don't like the idea and don't even wanna know about it.
   a negative answer. They don't like the idea but appreciate your effort to present the ideas. Mailing them back and asking them to reconsider usually gets the above treatment.
   a request for more information. Hmmm, they might like it, and want to know if this is something that has potential. The extra information must show that you know what yer doing and that they can count on you to do something good with anything they provide.
   a downright positive answer. These are rare. Usually it requires option 3.

Last note: asking them to reveal any of their code is useless. They won't. Understandably so. Urging them to reconsider this is not very smart.

Personally, I am against the whole idea to edit units. They are fine, and more are on their way. Solid tactics answer most of the problems people are having with them. Tampering with them only upsets the balance in the tactics.

Mind you, that's only my opinion. You obviously don't agree.

[Addonas]

Hello Erado San

I agree with you about the editing of units, the only way that I agree with it is for releasing some sort of mod, where you're not even really necessarily using the same units that are in teh game.

Well, that's pretty good news, at least someone can get through to them. :-)

Is anyone up for setting up a proposal and idea to them?

[johnmcd]

I’m not a modder, and I’m not about to become one, but I can’t understand why EA don’t want to release the SDK. People still have to buy the game to play the mods created with it so EA get their money, and, as we’ve seen with Half Life, a few good mods actually shifts more units. I’m dying for TFC 2 to be released but not to play it, but the mods which will surely follow. Sierra are sharp enough to the value of good mods that they have signed up the best FPS modders to ensure they continue to get good stuff. As it is Shogun is going to remain a minority game because its samurai, take it or leave it. If you could play it with Tiger and T-34 tanks folk would desert Sudden Strike to play it, if you could play it with gnomes and fairies I’m sure that would attract another whole constituency. Unless they think they can sell us the WWII and Dragon version of the game as well as the samurai version I don’t know why they aren’t making the most of great engine, damn I wish this game had a decent publisher.

Actually there is a game coming out that seems like a carbon of copy of Shogun but with huge fantasy armies, I saw a screen shot with a massive bone dragon eating about four tiny little dwarves while the other dwarves and assorted skeletons battled at its feet, its not the Shogun engine, but a similar one. Anyone know the name/ release date?

[Yamaga Shimazu]

Hello Erado,

I am happy to see you interested in this forum for it is a very important one; the key to decide wether stw has to live or die when the project is over.

I have a file with noted issues and ideas for this game, it is a pdf and it has now arrived at the 30th page. I will not release this file to the dev team, and i will contribute to the game only in an unofficial way.
Should we, who want this game bettered, ever put our hands on the main code, then things would be different. I have seen it happening with Falcon4 and stw is much easier game than falcon4 :-)
They will release the code when their project is over...when they need the game to be sold still, but having no work to put in for themselves, they will let unofficial development begin.
This is what i think they will do.I came to this conclusion given my inability to contact any of the dev team and just added a logical conclusion :

"Why not releasing the code? We are working on another project and by leting the community keep the game alive, we will keep selling and earning with no expense and no time wasted for us".

Should we get organized (i know many ppl are working for the development of stw, and by no mean they are involved with the dev team) i think many things could be done...but of course, we need to alter the code, or just the shogun.exe. And it can't be done without the programmers' permission.

As to the present, i am currently involved in the thorough testing of a ruled system for buying armies, with honor limiters and a bit of historical accuracy.
It is more realistic, gives more fun and it's totally free and already working :-)

Ppl interested can look at my topic : the rules.

Erado...i have so many things to say about this subject that ...bah...never mind.
Anyway this post is very small compared to my original one answering to your message...
There was a blackout and poooof ! Everything was lost ;-)
Hope to hear from you soon.