Hunic Horse Archers

[Coldfish]

Knowing that are going to be so many.....what u guys think it will be most suitable unit that can neutralise them...Of course we don`t know yet all BIs units and special powers...but some basic ideas i think is posible

I think non-missile cavalry will be most effective against those horse archers.....infantry i think is useless in a open battle

[Franconicus]

foot archers., tons of foot archers!

[The Hun]

We have to wait and see special abilities available to Hunnic HA but Franconicus is mostly correct what he says. Many many foot archers will help you must at least have more as mobile HA will score more hits and then the gap gets wider as they trade arrows. The red zone is another great help because light cavalry are able to pin HA that are not managed.

Ranging out after them should be dangerous because the Huns should have Gothic cavalry to counter ( if CA give us proper Hun armies ) It will be interesting to see their units. I cannot wait

[Coldfish]

so.....CA please show us next friday a hunic unit

[antisocialmunky]

If CA decides to make light cavalry competative, then light cav.

[Viking]

First kill their general from a distance with artillery, then pin one and one unit down with light cavalry and finally start a mass rout.

So..I have my tactics ready, so I might actually be playing the western romans first.

[The Hun]

Light cavalry would be ok against only HA but what the Huns have waiting? This must be considered.

[Coldfish]

it will be hard if the huns will have units,something like cataphracts archers..or heavy armoured HA....in this case you will need lots of heavy cavalry..foot archers are almost useless...and heavy infantry too....it will be impossible for infantry to catch those horse archers

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the problem with light cavalry is that it's just not fast enough. Regular HA runs away from it or arrows them to death. The problem even then is that running away is primarily defensive meaning the runner has initiative- that is initiative to run your light horse past heavy Gothic Cavalry.

The only way to control a fight where the enemy is faster than you is to control where they can go. IE, push them against the edge or hide in a forest, charge into a C. Circle.

I think the only wat to fix it is to make light cavalry faster and have better endurance. That way, you can use them to keep the HA at bay.

[Spartiate]

A guy by the name of Kassai Lajos in Hungary has reinvented this art from scratch.He remade Hun bows as described by Priscus the Roman/Byzantine envoy to his court in exact detail using horn hide and a blend of woods.He proved that details of the bow being both accurate and deadly at a range of 500 feet are true.Bear in mind that this man learned to ride at the age of 20 and took up archery in the same year.He was not "born in the saddle" as Hun children were reputed to be at the time and does not have the callus that forms on a childs fingers from constant use of the bow from a young age(he tapes his).Yet this man can hit 3 stationary targets twice each in 12 seconds(or less) and 3 mobile targets once each in less than 10 seconds.This includes a "Parthian shot" for the finale.
If this man can do this then what could real Hun HAs do.I reckon foot archers will not be the answer.I'm not sure what the range of bows in civilised nations was at the time.Anyone know?

[Steppe Merc]

The best counter to horse archers is other horse archers.

[SMZ]

A guy by the name of Kassai Lajos in Hungary has reinvented this art from scratch.He remade Hun bows as described by Priscus the Roman/Byzantine envoy to his court in exact detail using horn hide and a blend of woods.He proved that details of the bow being both accurate and deadly at a range of 500 feet are true.Bear in mind that this man learned to ride at the age of 20 and took up archery in the same year.He was not "born in the saddle" as Hun children were reputed to be at the time and does not have the callus that forms on a childs fingers from constant use of the bow from a young age(he tapes his).Yet this man can hit 3 stationary targets twice each in 12 seconds(or less) and 3 mobile targets once each in less than 10 seconds.This includes a "Parthian shot" for the finale.
If this man can do this then what could real Hun HAs do.I reckon foot archers will not be the answer.I'm not sure what the range of bows in civilised nations was at the time.Anyone know?

wow. no wonder HA kicked everyone's butt all over the place

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The limitations on HA were two fold:

1. If you ever could get at them hand-to-hand (difficult for sure) then they weren't armored for the rough and tumble.

2. Logistics. Accurately firing between 4 and 10 shots a minute uses up a lot of arrows in a hurry -- a problem shared by the English archer-armies a few centuries later.

Also, their ability to punch through armor is limited -- though most units of the roman era were not all that well armored.

You could, historically, wait it out and absorb some losses and then just run them off. Barring an unusually well stocked supply line, the HA could play hit and run only so long.

Now, if the HA's were simply there to immobilize you behind your shield while the other guys got in position to scrag you.....

[cunctator]

I don`t see why light cavalry should be faster than the light HAs. Except when Ca powers LC artifically up and sacrifices historical accuracy for "better" for gameplay.

Fighting them with other HAs should result in heavy casualties on both sides as long as you don`t have much better and/or much more HAs than the enemy what should be very diffucult to achieve for most "civilised" factions.

To wait until the HAs have extended their arrows should work in the game if you can accept the loses, but historiclly it was a very risky strategy, see carhae.

Outgunning them with foot archers should work best. More of them can be placed in an area of equal size than HAs and they will fire against bigger targets.

The "civilised" people used composite bows copied from/influenced by the steppe people. The effective range of reconstructed bows is between 175-200m. Vegetius (writing in the 4th century AD about the earlier roman army) also mentioned that roman archers trained to shoot at distances of 600 roman feet (~177m). Unnecessary to say that this could not be well aimed shoots. There shouldn`t be a difference in quality large enough to make their archers uncompetitive.

In game placing lots of missile/artillery troops behind a wall of heavy infantry worked for me so far against mass HAs. It should also work as well in BI.

[Orda Khan]

HA v HA is the best method but we should remember that this did not work for the Sarmatians because the bow of the Huns was a superior weapon. The Sarmatians were crushed.

Roman use of the bow was simply awful. They drew to the chest which limited the efficacy of the arrow in both cast and penetration. The Huns were fully aware of this. Eastern Roman ( Byzantine is easier ) armies became more adept with the bow ( through trade with the Huns ) than those of the West which remained woefully inadequate. The Western armies relied on Hunnic contingents in their armies for fire power.

Kassai Lajos.....I know a lot about this man. He holds horsearchery contests on his bit of land ( his valley ) in Hungary. The three stationary targets are placed so that they are shot on the approach, as you pass and finally a Parthian shot. His world record is actually three shots in 5.03 seconds. This is a tremendous feat in many ways, I would doubt that I would be able to nock, draw and shoot one arrow in that time ( and that is not on horseback )
In fairness, it must be added that Kassai uses a light Hun bow, not much heavier draw weight than the one my wife uses. This is due to the fact he does hundreds of shots almost daily whilst maintaining his horses' training. A heavier draw would naturally slow him down.

Hun tactics were not to expend all their arrows in a few minutes and logistically they were always well supplied ( Ammianus reported that the men did little else than maintain their equipment, make arrows and hunt )

Armour at this time was not mediaeval plate and it was precisely the fact that Hun arrows were able to penetrate armour that made them so deadly. The Hun bow was assymetrical, with a longer upper limb, which produced a bigger, stronger weapon than previously seen amongst HA. It was not bettered in design ( not even by the Avars and Magyars ) until the arrival of the Mongol bow.

So we can see the difficulties posed to armies facing these units and I would say that above all, discipline is the greatest asset. Accepting that losses are inevitable and not allowing your lines to become disordered. Countering with foot archers and waiting for a sign of impatience or a mistake from your enemy. Hopefully you will have enough left to deal with whatever hand to hand units the Hun has brought to the battle.

The Barbarian Invasion expansion pack does sound a mouth watering prospect. Role on release!!!

........Orda

[cunctator]

Orda Khan do you have any source that the roman archers and horse archers drew to the chest exclusively? Not only in cases when a faster rain of arrows was needed. I doubt that any professional archer in any culture don`know that the kinetic energy of the arrow is serously reduced if he onmly draws to the chest.
Monuments or writings made by roman artists, not trusted with this fighting techniques did not always show the truth. I have a picture from the tombstone of one roman horsearcher where the head of the horse is between the sinew and the bow. The ranges mentioned above can only be achieved when the bow is fully elongated and. Archers played an important part in the roman army since the early principate.

Remeber that the western roman empire was already in rapid decline when the huns arrived in europe. They had to rely on all sort of foreign "barbarian" troops to hold their power together.

[Orda Khan]

I did not say that HA drew to the chest though there is considerable evidence that the Scythians did and they braced their drawing arm against their ribs.
When using a composite bow, the thumb draw produces a more efficient shot, the Romans did not use this method either. Mere experience does not mean that the best method will be adopted
www.atarn.org

.....Orda

[Spartiate]

Kassai Lajos reportedly uses what he calls "Zen Archery".It is apparrently almost impossible to aim from horse-back so people who are already experienced archers on foot trust their instincts on when is the correct moment to release the arrow.This moment is when all four of the horses hooves are off the ground.He also claims that you achieve this purely on instinct.He also draws the bow to an area approximately over his heart.*Goes looking for book*

By the way the book i'm getting my info from is called Attila-A Barbarian King and the Fall of Rome by John Man who also wrote a book on Genghis Khan.The bow Orda describes originated with a tribe in the area of the Gobi and then dissappeared west with them before making a reappearance with first the Huns and then later the Mongols.It also travelled east and showed up in Japan.For a rough idea of the look of this bow you can see one being used in the Last Samurai(i know....history lessons.....films).

[cunctator]

Thanks for the atarn link. Very intersting.


I am still doubtfull that they only draw the bow to the chest. It sems too obvious to me to elongate the bow as much as possible to achieve the best results. Also all the archers on the assyrian wall carvings or egyptian pharaohs draw the sinew behind their ear. I have never thought about that any archer would do it differently. Since the imperial roman archers units were created in the eastern provinces I can´t imagine that their archers didn´t know it and used different methods that anyone else in this region.

I have found a quote from Prokopios "De Bello Persico" ( 1.1,8ff if somebody has the book) where he compares the contemporary 6th century East roman/Byzantine Horse Archers with earlier bowmen. But the text is incomplete. First he said that Homer`s archers did not have horse, armour etc. than their is a gap and than he said they only draw the sinew to the chest another gap and later that todays archers drew it behind their ear..
I don`t have the original full text avaible so i can`t judge if he still talks about archers by Homer, but this seems most probable to me.



The romans perhaps used thumbrings. The author of the only book about the roman army, i`ve read so far, that mentions that topic says this is doubtful and that only one clearly roman thumb ring has been found. (in Dura Europos) Generally it is considered that the Mongol release was not introduced before the 5th century into the eastern roman/byzantine forces.
But a even a quick internet search brings up so called roman archer ring in masses, so that i don`t really know what to think about.

http://www.geocities.com/qilich/othe...rect/roman.htm
http://www.romancoinsonline.com/roman%20rings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/qilich/arti...l/bonering.htm


I will do more research on the archery techniques of roman units. It`s definetly a topic worth it.

[Orda Khan]

Try this site..www.grozerarchery.com
Csaba Grozer is a fine bowyer who produces modern replicas of ancient bows. He also makes traditional composite versions of most of the Steppe Culture bows, utilising horn and tendon wrapped with birch bark. The Hun bow on this site is the bow I ordered for myself and my wife ( unfortunately I could not afford two composites )

Byzantine armies began to include HA into their armies and during the 6th C they made use of both Avars and their bows. The Avars are also credited with introducing the stirrup but that is another story

.......Orda

[antisocialmunky]

I'm just wondering.

Why exactly is it better to draw the bow the whole way every single time? Isn't it situational? Just because the there is a maximum effective range doesn't mean that it was the range used. If you're on horseback wouldn't it be advantagious to shorten the regular draw length because you're shooting from a moving platform and balancing on a moving object at the same time?

How close did they historically get to their target before firing anyways?

[cunctator]

Making a composite bow can take up to year, but does anyone know their durability. How long can such bow be used constanlty until it need to be replaced?

I would say it is situational, but it is not only a question of range. An arrow fired from a fully elongated bow has more kinetic energy and is so more capaple to penetrate shields and armour. Roman foot archers often shoot above the heads of the heavy infantry before them and didn`t see their target (see links). With this tactic it is important to fire with high range to be fully effective.


The imperial roman army used Horse archers since the early principate. They are mentinioned for example by Tacitus ANN. 2.16 in 16 Ad as part of Germanicus army fighting in northern germany or by Arrian around 135 Ad when he describes his battleorder against the Alans.

tacitus:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/ta...sAnnals02.html
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/tacitus/tac.ann2.shtml

Arrian:
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dor...s/ektaxis.html


Most of the roman`s army archer units were based in Northern africa, the lower danube and the near east to counter the mobile enemies there. From the 1st to 3rd century AD are 46 units known:

Pure Horse archer units:
11 alae quingenariae sagittariorum ( out of ~75)

Mixed units 75% foot 25% horse archers:
8 cohortes equitatae millariae sagittariorum( out of ~22)
9 cohortes equitatae quingenariae sagittariorum( out of ~77)

Pure foot archer units:
18 corhortes sigittariorum ( out of ~18 cohortes millariae and 132 quingenariae)

[Megas Alexandros]

Huh, what an abundance of data!

And I always thought that hails of arrows could be rendered harmless by large and strong shields.

[Orda Khan]

Re: Roman archers drawing to centre of chest

Ammianus, XXV.1.13
Shows surprise and comments on the length of draw and expertise of release demonstrated by Steppe HA.

I will try to re-find an article I read about a Tibetan composite bow. It was extremely old and had even been repaired along one of the limbs. Failing breakage, there is nothing to suggest serious deteriation over decades of use.

The Byzantine use of Avar equipment was a reference to HA who used steppe type composite bows

.......Orda

[cunctator]

Thanks again Orda. i already wanted to read Ammianus Marcelinus during summer, now I`ve one reason more. The durability is astonishing. I have suspected that the material becames inflexibly over time.

But were the scythian style bows shown in greek and roman art and the later improved versions with bone ends. that apeared in Augustean era findings, not already steppe type composite bows?

This site has some pictures of roman archery equippment found along the Hadrian`s wall. (Arrowheads, thumbrings and bone ends) (on page 3)
http://www.geocities.com/overyom/Roman_Archery.html

This bone ends are almost the only remainings from roman bows I know. They were found partily in greater througouts roman forts. I`ve read that a complete upper part of a bow was found in Balmesa egypt, but i`ve not seen a picture so far.

[Lord Adherbal]

I noticed in ChivalryTW how crossbowmen were very effective against the cantabrian circle ability because of the straight course of the projectiles, while normal archers do few damage (like in RTW vanilla). While an arrow only hits the point it lands on, a crossbowbolt can hit anything that stands in it's course. I believe the crusaders also learned to use crossbowmen against the muslim HA's.
I guess there will be a number of (early) crossbow units in BI aswell ? so they should be very effective against HA's (unless their range is shorter).

[antisocialmunky]

Too bad TW can't make units shoot style dependent on range since they are either stuck at high angle or low angle.

I guess if you modded in larger ballista units they could be an effective counter.