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Thread: Another victory for guns

  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Another victory for guns

    I got this off Msnbc the link wasnt working so

    WASHINGTON - The Senate voted Friday to shield firearms manufacturers, dealers and importers from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crimes, a measure opponents said had been ordered up by the gun lobby.

    The 65-31 vote passed a bill that supporters said protects the industry from financial disaster and bankruptcy caused by damage lawsuits.

    "This bill says go after the criminal, don't go after the law-abiding gun manufacturer or the law-abiding gun seller," said bill sponsor Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho.

    But Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., and other opponents said the gun industry needs no such special protection. "This bill has one motivation - payback by the Bush administration and the Republican leadership of the Congress to the powerful special interest of the National Rifle Association," he said.

    Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., yanked similar legislation from debate last year when Democrats successfully attached an extension of the ban on assault-style weapons and the NRA dropped its support.

    Republicans picked up four more Senate seats in last November's election, emboldening gun rights supporters to try again.

    The House passed a similar bill last year but has taken no action on it this year.

    Democrats won inclusion this year of a new requirement that each handgun be sold with a separate child safety or locking device, unless purchased by government officials or police officers. Any violation could be punished by the suspension of a dealer's license, a $10,000 fine, or both.

    Gunmakers still face product liability
    Craig said the bill does not block gunmakers and dealers from facing product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits.

    Its opponents, however, say the bill effectively exempts gun manufacturers from liability. They also say dealers sometimes let weapons get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them.

    Democrats tried and lost attempts to insert special provisions in the legislation that would let children and police retain the right to sue, along with another amendment that would have let individuals but not municipalities retain the right to sue.

    "Should those whose actions lead to the death or injury of a child get a free pass?" asked Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., who sponsored one amendment.

    Supporters of the liability bill said the changes would have gutted the bill.

    The Senate also brushed aside a Kennedy amendment that would have banned hollow-tipped, so-called "cop killer" bullets.

    The gun industry gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats during that election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

    Our Goverment got something right this is a reason to celebrate
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  2. #2
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Well, yes, I agree. Stupid people making money from dumber actions...always can use protection from that (why do condoms spring to mind right now?)

    But here comes the hate mail!

    Duck and cover!

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    This is great news. I will celebrate by buying a new gun( i have been saving for a while now any way but now i have an excuse to go get it. )


    It looks like the gun grabbers have lost in the USA. Most of the country has ccw, the assault weapon ban is gone, and now this

    The 2nd amendment is saved
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

    yay!
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Oddly enough, the murder rate (and all violent crime) has been dropping for the last 30 years, while the amount of guns has been increasing!

    And I don't get what's with antis who all seem to think guns are just a way to make one's self bigger, or to prove that they are more manly. Maybe to you they are, but to us, they are just a tool for defending yourself and a way to have fun.
    Oh, what was it Freud said? Ah yes; "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Maybe that explains some people's poor attempts at satire.

    It looks like the gun grabbers have lost in the USA. Most of the country has ccw, the assault weapon ban is gone, and now this

    The 2nd amendment is saved
    Don't celebrate too early, eternal vigilance is required to remain free. Look at Cali: banning certian calibers because they are scary. We must continue the assualt until all men are free.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  6. #6
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

    yay!
    I've never quite understood why when someone takes another persons life by use of a firearm people want to punish the whole gun owning community
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

    yay!


    Take a look at DC..... They have the highest murder rate in the US and oddly enough guns are banned there.......(the ban will be gone in a couple moths though )



    Look at all the places in the US where they are banned. They have the highest crime and murder rates.
    Formerly ceasar010

  8. #8

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

    yay!

    Tell me have you ever fired a gun? Have you ever owned one? Have you ever so much as touched one?

    My guess is probably not or you would not have such a narrow minded view.

    You want to take them away from all of us. I want people to have the CHOICE of owning one or not.


    Why dont you get after cigarettes they are more harmful then guns. cigarettes are harmful. Guns only have the potential to be.


    Read that article I posted in the LWC
    Formerly ceasar010

  9. #9
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    I'm pleased to see the child safety lock requirement for handguns. Seems very sensible to me as IIRC most child casualties are cause by firearms accidents at home?

    Not sure why hollow points shouldn't be illegal though. No doubt an expert can enlighten me.

    Also happy to see that the compensation culture has been brought to a halt somewhere. Now for everything else! However I wonder will it have a knock-on effect on corporate responsibility as a whole?

    Being a Brit I have had little contact with guns (apart from some target shooting which I enjoyed as a challenge) and I don't feel particularly threatened by not owning one. Also I am happy with the size of my manhood lol

    Besides which I could always nip out and buy a crossbow (a more civilized weapon, for a more civilized age) so all is not lost!
    Last edited by Slyspy; 07-31-2005 at 23:22.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  10. #10

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    In america you are allowed to carry a gun (if you meet certain standards) The people who do that (and there are quite a few) need hollow points.


    And why do you consider a cross bow civilized . There are civilized looking guns out there like the 1911 or browning hi power.
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 07-31-2005 at 23:54.
    Formerly ceasar010

  11. #11
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Yes I know that you can own a gun. But why hollow points? What makes them so special that the Democrats want to ban them while the Republicans don't? If they go by the nick-name "cop killers" it seems likely that the police would want them to be illegal as well?

    On an unrelated note I find corporate sponsorship of political parties through "donations" particularly distasteful whether it is the gun industry or fluffy teddy bear manufacturers.

    Civilized? You probably realise the Obi Wan connection. Also slightly harder to go on a high school ramage with a crossbow, though not impossible.
    Last edited by Slyspy; 08-01-2005 at 00:00.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  12. #12

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    you are allowed to carry a gun with you in the US for protection. And there are a few advatages to hollow points

    1 more stopping power

    2 it is less likley to go through the bad guy and harm an innocent.

    And criminals almost never buy them they are pretty expensive. Criminals usually have the cheapest guns with the cheapest ammo.
    Formerly ceasar010

  13. #13

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy
    Y

    Civilized? You probably realise the Obi Wan connection. Also slightly harder to go on a high school ramage with a crossbow, though not impossible.

    The columbine kids broke enough laws to go to jail for over 1000 years before they even fired a shot.

    from one of the pro gun sites i go to

    Klebold and Harris broke enough federal firearms laws to put themselves into jail for over 1000 years before they even fired the first shot.

    They built 2 short barreled shotguns. Without paying $200 making tax and registration in the National Firearms Act database possession will get you up to 10 years in prison, PER count.

    They built 97 pipebombs and propane bombs. Each one is a Destructive Device that required registration in the NFA database and $200 making tax. Each count can get up to 10 years in federal prison.

    They did not pay the taxes associated with making those weapons so they get hit with tax evasion too.

    2 short barreled shotguns = 20 years
    97 destructive devices = 970 years

    Then add however many years for tax evasion, bringing a firearm to a high school, illegal concealed carry and it is easily well over 1000 years.

    There is also a $10000 fine per COUNT on National Firearms Act violations. Those 2 punks not only faced over 1000 years in prison but also $990000 in fines.

    If anyone thinks more gun laws would have stopped columbine, they obviously have their heads up their asses. Just offhand I can list enough offenses to put the Columbine shooters into jail for 10 lifetimes, BEFORE they even shot anyone.
    Formerly ceasar010

  14. #14
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    The columbine kids broke enough laws to go to jail for over 1000 years before they even fired a shot.

    from one of the pro gun sites i go to
    Oh for goodness sake it was a joke. I wasn't starting a debate on the rights and wrongs for firearms. Though it is amusing that most of that jail time would be for tax evasion (err.. we use the propane bombs for fishing....). Its just like Al Capone but without the Prohibition-era style!
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Yes I know that you can own a gun. But why hollow points? What makes them so special that the Democrats want to ban them while the Republicans don't? If they go by the nick-name "cop killers" it seems likely that the police would want them to be illegal as well?
    It's just a name antis use to get an emotional rise out of people who don't know anything about guns.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  16. #16

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Sorry slippsy

    I like your views on here they really are moderate. Not like the liberals in disguise at the moderate club.
    Formerly ceasar010

  17. #17
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy
    I'm pleased to see the child safety lock requirement for handguns. Seems very sensible to me as IIRC most child casualties are cause by firearms accidents at home?

    Not sure why hollow points shouldn't be illegal though. No doubt an expert can enlighten me.
    The child locks thing sounds stupid- but its not worth getting worried about. Honestly, are there any reputable gun makers/sellers that don't already include locks with their weapons? And so what if its federally required? If people are going to be irresponsible, having a trigger lock in your junk drawer isn't going to help. But, like I said, not a big deal.

    As to hollow points- IMO, if you're going to use a handgun for self-defense, its stupid not to use hollow points. FMJ can over penetrate and hit things or people behind your target. Also, hollow points are much more likely to stop an assailant than FMJ. FMJ could go right thru a person, and they may bleed to death later (or not), but it's less likely to stop an attack.
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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Oh I see now. For stopping power the HP round is superior. I presume the FMJ as other qualities? Improved AP properties etc? Sort of like the M16 vs AK thing. Which round do the police use, and which is the most common overall?

    Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?

    As for the lock, well it seems sensible to have it enshrined in law. If a dealer breaks that one he may tend to commit other, less obvious, violations as well. This legislation is, after all, about protecting legitimate dealers rather than protecting children from bullets.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  19. #19

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy
    Oh I see now. For stopping power the HP round is superior. I presume the FMJ as other qualities? Improved AP properties etc? Sort of like the M16 vs AK thing. Which round do the police use, and which is the most common overall?

    Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?

    As for the lock, well it seems sensible to have it enshrined in law. If a dealer breaks that one he may tend to commit other, less obvious, violations as well. This legislation is, after all, about protecting legitimate dealers rather than protecting children from bullets.

    The media hates guns in the US they demonize them every chance they get. That is why they made the term "cop killer"

    The police use hollow points because they cant have bullets going through people.
    Formerly ceasar010

  20. #20
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Surely then FMJ should be the "cop killer" of choice since they wear flak jackets? Or is it just that since HP is more common so more cops are killed by it? Either way thanks for the info.

    I'm sorry ceasar but I don't buy the left-wing media thing. How could I, not living in the States? It smacks of paranoia to those with no experience of the US media beyond superficial TV news and the trashy articles so often quoted in this forum! This insistence may be one reason why the Euros on this forum sometimes find it hard to swallow some of the "Conservative Club" arguments.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  21. #21

    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Hollow points are not more common because they cost... ALOT,... most criminals use cheap full metal jackets. Like wolf ammunition(it is the cheapest POS ammo on the market it almost ruined one of my guns)

    Criminals almost always buy the cheapest guns and ammo. (unless they steal them)



    "cop killer bullet" was just a word made up by anti gun people to further their arguments, most cops are killed by full metal jacket ammunition.


    here are the price differences

    http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_s...roduct301.html

    http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_s...roduct484.html

    FMJ means full metal jacket
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 08-01-2005 at 01:27.
    Formerly ceasar010

  22. #22
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    I like the technical details and diagram lol. Would it not be easier to say "kills things dead messily"?
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  23. #23
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?
    Well, what is a 'cop killer' bullet? Is it a bullet specially designed to kill cops? Will it just bounce off anyone who isn't a cop? Of course not. All bullets are designed to be as deadly as possible, no matter what their target is. Since a cop is just a normal human, there is nothing special a bullet would need to do to cause them harm.

    As I said, the term is just made up to cause fear among people and try to make them think that somehow these bullets are more deadly, when in fact they are not. They use this fear as a base to push for banning some ammunition.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    That is not what I was after. See my previous reply to ceasar as to why such statements are of no use when convering with someone from outside of the USA. With no exposure to such things we require proof and explantions. That is why I asked whether the HP ammo was common or whether most police casualties had been caused by it. Quite clearly if hit with HP (cop or not) the chances of being seriously (fatally?) injured are higher, unless I have been wrongly informed in previous posts. I'm looking for information not hyperbole and argument. Sure, I could use google and suchlike but forums are a more human way of communicating!
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Well, I was talking more about the term 'cop killer bullets' than the relationship between hollow point and full metal jacket rounds, which you seem to understand correctly, to my knowledge.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  26. #26
    Conspicuously Inconspicuous Member makkyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    I doubt any kind of ban on firearms would work. The ones that would commit the crime would find these weapons regardless of any kind of law, while leaving the victim defenceless, who would probably go through all of the legal means to get a gun, but would be unable. It's kind of the same idea behind the ban on alcohol. The people who want to drink will drink, no matter what the government says.
    "And one should bear in mind that there is nothing more difficult to execute, nor more dubious of success, nor more dangerous to administer than to introduce a new order to things; for he who introduces it has all those who profit from the old order as his enemies; and he has only lukewarm allies in all those who might profit from the new. This lukewarmness partly stems from fear of their adversaries, who have the law on their side, and partly from the skepticism of men, who do not truly believe in new things unless they have personal experience in them."
    ~ Niccolo Machiavelli

  27. #27
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by makkyo
    I doubt any kind of ban on firearms would work. The ones that would commit the crime would find these weapons regardless of any kind of law, while leaving the victim defenceless, who would probably go through all of the legal means to get a gun, but would be unable. It's kind of the same idea behind the ban on alcohol. The people who want to drink will drink, no matter what the government says.
    Bingo! I think this is what so many gun control activists don't realize.

    And makkyo, your title does seem very appropriate. I don't think I've ever seen you around here before.

    Hi!

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  28. #28
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    Why dont you get after cigarettes they are more harmful then guns. cigarettes are harmful.
    I believe that the tobacco industry been sued in US ?

    Also to note, cigarettes are only dangerous if you use them, just like guns....

  29. #29
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos
    Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

    yay!
    My friend, as ever you speak total sense.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

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  30. #30
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another victory for guns

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Well, I was talking more about the term 'cop killer bullets' than the relationship between hollow point and full metal jacket rounds, which you seem to understand correctly, to my knowledge.
    I thought cop killer rounds was armor piercing ammo? Police often remember to wear body armor, so something designed to go through armor would be a cop killer.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

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